Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. That would be a grip line. The muzzle line is pointed straight down. IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. That would be a grip line. The muzzle line is pointed straight down. Facing Uprange - Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. Facing Down Range - The exact opposite of facing uprange So what is your point? The fact that one foot and shoulder is not right at 90? Seems like a stretch to me... Not again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) They also apparently say that you have to turn 90 degrees, which we've established isn't what the rule actually says. There a reason that the NROI ruling references the muzzle line crossing "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop". Where did they get that language? 10.5.2, which talks about the muzzle going past 180. Not a line that goes through the grip and sights. Clearly, we need some Tiger Teams to sort this out. Edited March 18, 2014 by Racer377 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Just trying to support your position as on this we agree Sarge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I think another point that is being missed (or ignored) is mixing up a technical term with a more common one. Yes "facing uprange" is defined in the rule book. This was put there because shooters were turning half way to the targets on the starts similar to what they do now when the phrase "facing uprange" is not included in the WSB. But I think we all know that the common usage of uprange means to be pointed rearward of the 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Just trying to support your position as on this we agree Sarge! I know, but it's giving me a headache from beating my head against the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 We just need a more clear definition of what was meant by the muzzle line of the holster (emphasis mine). It didn't say the muzzle of the gun, it said the muzzle line of the holster. If I imagine a handgun with a laser cartridge in the chamber, it projects a red dot from the muzzle. The spot is next to my foot while the gun is holstered. When I draw the gun from the holster, the spot draws a line along the ground forward of the shooter. I'm assuming that to be the "muzzle line of the holster". But we've all heard about assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDubU Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Not trying to stir the pot...but in this pic of the same stage...the shooter should have been DQed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 We just need a more clear definition of what was meant by the muzzle line of the holster (emphasis mine). It didn't say the muzzle of the gun, it said the muzzle line of the holster. If I imagine a handgun with a laser cartridge in the chamber, it projects a red dot from the muzzle. The spot is next to my foot while the gun is holstered. When I draw the gun from the holster, the spot draws a line along the ground forward of the shooter. I'm assuming that to be the "muzzle line of the holster". But we've all heard about assumptions. "muzzle line of the holster"-- yep that's what we need a definition of, with clarification in the rule book. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Not trying to stir the pot...but in this pic of the same stage...the shooter should have been DQed? Assuming that the faultline at his left foot is parallel to the 180, I'd make that call...... For a 180 break...... 10.5.2 The COF started with Make Ready..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. That would be a grip line. The muzzle line is pointed straight down. I suggest you have a discussion with the person who taught your RO class. So... about that. Any chance you'd like to place a friendly wager on the definition of holster muzzle line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 My definition would be a 180 degree arc formed between the rear sight and the front sight. If that arcs path will pass outside the 90 degree median or the 180 line then the muzzle is up range. If that arc is inside the 90 degree median or 180 line then it is down range. My favorite versions of an uprange facing start are outside the shooting area, unloaded on prop, or loaded on prop. Force or give the shooter time to safely turn fully down range before they can access their gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I think another point that is being missed (or ignored) is mixing up a technical term with a more common one. Yes "facing uprange" is defined in the rule book. This was put there because shooters were turning half way to the targets on the starts similar to what they do now when the phrase "facing uprange" is not included in the WSB. But I think we all know that the common usage of uprange means to be pointed rearward of the 180. I agree. The rule book definitions are kinda silly and we should definitely substitute our own definitions when we see fit. That's the mark of a good RO - using "what we all" know instead of what black letter rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That gun is up out of the holster far enough to qualify as being drawn. I'm probably being too simplistic here, but it would seem that this is the key issue. At what point is the gun considered to be drawn? Whatever that point is, if the gun is not pointing downrange at that moment, then it's a violation of the 180. It doesn't matter which way the shooter is facing. Same thing when shooting or reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 If the trigger guard is exposed, the gun is out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 "In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop"." The way this was explained to me by my NROI instructor the guy with the open gun is a DQ. He would have needed to get around quite a ways from where he is to have the "muzzle line" get past "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop" He described the muzzle line pretty much like Scott did. In the picture of that open gun the muzzle line would have been to the right of where the guy taking the picture was and not close to far enough around. If had been asked to run that stage I would have lobbied hard for a different starting position as I know I would have sent a ton of people home. At the very least I would have tried to get some extra verbiage put into the stage brief to make people aware of this rule, and ruling. This is one reason I like to know what stage I am going to run before the RO's shoot so I can take a hard look at it and try to make sure I don't get put in a position where I send a lot of people home because of poor stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 If had been asked to run that stage I would have lobbied hard for a different starting position as I know I would have sent a ton of people home. At the very least I would have tried to get some extra verbiage put into the stage brief to make people aware of this rule, and ruling. This is one reason I like to know what stage I am going to run before the RO's shoot so I can take a hard look at it and try to make sure I don't get put in a position where I send a lot of people home because of poor stage design. I sort of share your opinion, except I honestly think the blame for people dq-ing lies on themselves, and all the RO's that let them slide somewhere else, and not on 'poor stage design'. Everyone knows about the danger of uprange starts. Everyone shoots el presidente and practices it. There's no good excuse for drawing a gun when you're still facing uprange. However, it ruins my day to send a bunch of people home, so I would really like to put something in the stage brief to remind people to keep their heads out of their azz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 If had been asked to run that stage I would have lobbied hard for a different starting position as I know I would have sent a ton of people home. At the very least I would have tried to get some extra verbiage put into the stage brief to make people aware of this rule, and ruling. This is one reason I like to know what stage I am going to run before the RO's shoot so I can take a hard look at it and try to make sure I don't get put in a position where I send a lot of people home because of poor stage design. I sort of share your opinion, except I honestly think the blame for people dq-ing lies on themselves, and all the RO's that let them slide somewhere else, and not on 'poor stage design'. Everyone knows about the danger of uprange starts. Everyone shoots el presidente and practices it. There's no good excuse for drawing a gun when you're still facing uprange. However, it ruins my day to send a bunch of people home, so I would really like to put something in the stage brief to remind people to keep their heads out of their azz. Having an up-range start with the first target on the 90 is, in my opinion, bad stage design. Yes we should all know it but in this case you don't even need to break the 90 with your gun, just the "muzzle line" not getting past it is enough. I would be willing to bet that better than 1/3, probably better than 1/2 in open and limited, of the people that shot that stage should have been a DQ if the RO running the stage understood the rule and the ruling. On El Prez, if the RO is willing to stand off set to the shooter so you could see his gun during the whole turn and draw (I am not) you could probably call a lot of folks on that one as well. Video yourself on El Pres and make sure you are not getting the gun out where even a little bit of the trigger guard is showing before the "muzzle line" of the holster is past the 90. I saw myself DQ on video in practice and I thought I was starting my draw way past the 90. Now I pretty much get all the way around before I start pulling my gun out. A turn and draw to a target on the 90 line would make me very nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 If had been asked to run that stage I would have lobbied hard for a different starting position as I know I would have sent a ton of people home. At the very least I would have tried to get some extra verbiage put into the stage brief to make people aware of this rule, and ruling. This is one reason I like to know what stage I am going to run before the RO's shoot so I can take a hard look at it and try to make sure I don't get put in a position where I send a lot of people home because of poor stage design. I sort of share your opinion, except I honestly think the blame for people dq-ing lies on themselves, and all the RO's that let them slide somewhere else, and not on 'poor stage design'. Everyone knows about the danger of uprange starts. Everyone shoots el presidente and practices it. There's no good excuse for drawing a gun when you're still facing uprange. However, it ruins my day to send a bunch of people home, so I would really like to put something in the stage brief to remind people to keep their heads out of their azz. Having an up-range start with the first target on the 90 is, in my opinion, bad stage design. Yes we should all know it but in this case you don't even need to break the 90 with your gun, just the "muzzle line" not getting past it is enough. I would be willing to bet that better than 1/3, probably better than 1/2 in open and limited, of the people that shot that stage should have been a DQ if the RO running the stage understood the rule and the ruling. On El Prez, if the RO is willing to stand off set to the shooter so you could see his gun during the whole turn and draw (I am not) you could probably call a lot of folks on that one as well. Video yourself on El Pres and make sure you are not getting the gun out where even a little bit of the trigger guard is showing before the "muzzle line" of the holster is past the 90. I saw myself DQ on video in practice and I thought I was starting my draw way past the 90. Now I pretty much get all the way around before I start pulling my gun out. A turn and draw to a target on the 90 line would make me very nervous. Good points. I missed the part about the first target being at (or close to) 90 degrees. That takes a LOT of discipline to execute without committing an infraction. We actually had a stage like that a month or so ago. I didn't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. I would also like to to talk to one that thinks a muzzle line doesn't go anywhere near the muzzle. That's funny. e-mail any of the NROI instructors. I guarantee you they will say you are wrong. I emailed NROI to get clarification on this. Robert, You would be correct in that logic, and as far as communication, reach out anytime, that is why I am here. Best regards, John Amidon From: Robert Simmons [mailto:robert.j.simmonsjd@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:45 AM To: 'DNROI' Subject: RE: 10.5.16 and the "Muzzle Line: That makes sense. To be precise about this, would I be correct in saying that “holster’s muzzle line” is the line/direction in which the muzzle is pointing while in the holster? (That’s the obvious meaning to me, but it would be really helpful to have your blessing on that reading of it) Thanks for the replies. I think it’s a great thing for the sport to have this level of communication. From: DNROI [mailto:dnroi@uspsa.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:35 AM To: 'Robert Simmons, Esq.' Subject: RE: 10.5.16 and the "Muzzle Line: Holster line has to do with the position of the holster, like a forward cant or rearward cant, more caution has to be used when turning and drawing than with a straight down holster. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 To be fair you didn't email an instructor. I agree that the instructors would have a different take than DNROI on the subject. Of course now that DNROI has said it, well, it becomes the answer at least until they can get together and hash it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB45 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 So DQ or no DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 So DQ or no DQ? "we all know" he should be internet DQed, rule book be damned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 With that ruling, a competitor using a holster with a slight rearward cant can draw (have access to the trigger guard) as soon they break the definition of "facing up range" (by turning the head slightly) without risk of DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 See? Told ya so. Some ROs will do what they want, regardless of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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