Smitty79 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 There was a guy at the match today shooting hand loads and he had 3 or 4 squibs. All but one actually fired the bullet. One of them even took down a popper. But they sounded like a bunny fart and didn't cycle the action. As an RO, if you think you hear a squib, do you stop the shooter immediately? If you do, and the round did go down range, is that RO interference and justify a reshoot? If you don't stop him, how far down the path of racking in another round to continue shooting do you let the shooter go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 There was a guy at the match today shooting hand loads and he had 3 or 4 squibs. All but one actually fired the bullet. One of them even took down a popper. But they sounded like a bunny fart and didn't cycle the action. As an RO, if you think you hear a squib, do you stop the shooter immediately?Yes, unless you are on your toes and see the bullet impact somewhere. If you do, and the round did go down range, is that RO interference and justify a reshoot? It is a mandatory reshoot per Rule 5.7.7.2 If you don't stop him, how far down the path of racking in another round to continue shooting do you let the shooter go? If a shooter is stopped he stops. Period. There is no further trying to rack rounds. The shooter in question should have had his ammo pulled from the match as a safety matter per rule 5.5.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty79 Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 So the first time this happens, it's a reshoot. The second time it happens, it's a hazard and he needs to get new ammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 There was a guy at the match today shooting hand loads and he had 3 or 4 squibs. All but one actually fired the bullet. One of them even took down a popper. But they sounded like a bunny fart and didn't cycle the action. As an RO, if you think you hear a squib, do you stop the shooter immediately?Yes, unless you are on your toes and see the bullet impact somewhere. If you do, and the round did go down range, is that RO interference and justify a reshoot? It is a mandatory reshoot per Rule 5.7.7.2 If you don't stop him, how far down the path of racking in another round to continue shooting do you let the shooter go? If a shooter is stopped he stops. Period. There is no further trying to rack rounds. The shooter in question should have had his ammo pulled from the match as a safety matter per rule 5.5.5Ah Sarge....read again...all but one went down range....the shooter only had 1 squib.... can you pull his ammo for one squib? I think what he's asking is, do you let the shooter rack in another round when you think they may have been the possibility of a squib... The rules make no distinction for rounds that are not squibs...can't pull his ammo because he had 1 squib...if the bullet exited the barrel, by definition it's a shot, not a squib. You pull everybody's ammo for 1 squib....gonna be a long match, and you are not gonna be very well liked. On another note, the RO can stop him every single time he shoots, if he thinks there is a squib...but by rule, he gets a re-shoot...every single time, if there is no squib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 If I see rounds that don't move the slide even though they exit the barrel no those are not squibs. But it is suspect ammo in my opinion. three of those and then an actual squib I'm going to recommend to the RM/MD that the ammo be pulled. Major accident waiting to happen in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 In answer to the OP's original question, If you think you hear a squib - stop the shooter. I do not take chances with this. I would rather give multiple re-shoots than have one kaboom. If the shooter gets peeved after an "almost" squib I am sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 As an RO, if you think you hear a squib, do you stop the shooter immediately? Yes 100% of the time I would. I would rather err on the side of caution than to have a round not leave the barrel and have a kaboom happen up close and personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'm by no means saying don't stop the shooter...stop them every time if you even have a hint of a squib...safety is above all... all I'm saying is you can't pull his ammo for 1 squib. Recommend to pull yes, but even then, what are you gonna tell the RM/MD? He had several shots that sounded weak....and 1 squib? Are you gonna slow the match down to go and confer with the RM/MD? How can you penalize a shooter for a legal shot? Multiple squibs, by all means, pull the ammo...but until then, they shoot until the squib jams the gun, or they voluntarily pull the ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbinster Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 OK, I am far from an expert here, but I have a question. Even if it is not a squib and does go down range isn't there an issue because you know "know" that the round did not meet minimum power factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveU Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 OK, I am far from an expert here, but I have a question. Even if it is not a squib and does go down range isn't there an issue because you know "know" that the round did not meet minimum power factor? Unless you have a chrono set up to test ammo, you don't "know" anything except the shooter's stated power factor (major/minor). You can certainly test the ammo if you have an official chrono. 5.6.1, appendix C2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 To answer the questions, as RO, if you think you hear a squib, yes, you stop the shooter immediately. And yes, if it does clear the barrel, it is a mandatory reshoot as discussed above. There are no shades of gray on how far you go in allowing this. If you think you hear a squib, there is one and only one proper course of action--risk the possible reshoot and call "stop." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'm by no means saying don't stop the shooter...stop them every time if you even have a hint of a squib...safety is above all... all I'm saying is you can't pull his ammo for 1 squib. Recommend to pull yes, but even then, what are you gonna tell the RM/MD? He had several shots that sounded weak....and 1 squib? Are you gonna slow the match down to go and confer with the RM/MD? How can you penalize a shooter for a legal shot? Multiple squibs, by all means, pull the ammo...but until then, they shoot until the squib jams the gun, or they voluntarily pull the ammo. That's your opinion, right? But the call is up to whomever is working as RM at the time, and the RM has broad latitude...... For the record: I've never disqualified a batch of ammo -- but the scenario described above, absent other information (the shooter's using 2-4 different loads mixed in a grab bag) would get me close to making that call..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 OK, I am far from an expert here, but I have a question. Even if it is not a squib and does go down range isn't there an issue because you know "know" that the round did not meet minimum power factor? Unless you have a chrono set up to test ammo, you don't "know" anything except the shooter's stated power factor (major/minor). You can certainly test the ammo if you have an official chrono. 5.6.1, appendix C2 And, the shooter only makes power with those rounds flying over the chrono that actually make the minimum velocity. By averaging the best three we give the shooter a break, and then by assuming that all other rounds are equivalent we're giving them a pass. The only rounds we KNOW made power factor are those that flew over the chrono at a high enough velocity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 It can also help if you know the shooter. I had a mixed bag of Universal and Clays. The RO was a friend and he noticed the softer report of the Clays. He almost called stop but knew me well enough to know that I would also recognize a squib. He did ask if I had two different loads after my run was done. You have make your best call based on what you know and see. Better to err on the side of safety if you are in doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 If you're the RO and you think the guy just had a squib, stop him every single time. I don't think that's in question. If you have this issue more than once per match, I think you should probably have a conversation with the guy about why you stopped him and ask him to try to figure out what's going on. I'd probably also tell the RM to keep an eye out for the guy in future matches and see if he gets reshoots on a regular basis by polling the ROs. If you have the same issue for more than one or two matches in a reasonable timeframe (say two or three matches, assuming a monthly club match), I think the RM should probably have a talk with the guy about his level of comfort with the competitor's handloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I have a hard time understanding why a shooter would not pull his own ammo. I have had 2 squibs in a batch and pulled it myself on the second, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allfat Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I was shooting this match on his squad also. He had 4 questionable rounds, 3 that the bullet left the barrel, and 1 that was a real squib, bullet stuck in the barrel. The squib was the last one and after that, he withdrew himself from the match. There was only 1 stage left to go, and he called it a day. So really, he pulled himself after the first squib, but after the 4th suspect load. Just wanted to add my account to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I have a hard time understanding why a shooter would not pull his own ammo. I have had 2 squibs in a batch and pulled it myself on the second, I used to shoot unsanctioned/fun/bragging rights matches with a guy who had at least one squib every single time. Other guys who shot his caliber refused to use his ammo if they were out or having issues with their own. Some guys just get it into their heads that they're doing everything right, despite the evidence staring them in the face. I don't like shooting with guys like that any more, because the last thing I want to deal with is a KB--and I've had one myself (although not from a squib). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Some people's quality control is not what other people's quality control is....For some, a squib every 500 rounds is acceptable. ..for me, a squib every 50k rounds is unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Some people's quality control is not what other people's quality control is....For some, a squib every 500 rounds is acceptable. ..for me, a squib every 50k rounds is unacceptable. Mine too, which is why I have about 700 rds that have been waiting to be pulled for 4 months now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 For the record: I've never disqualified a batch of ammo -- but the scenario described above, absent other information (the shooter's using 2-4 different loads mixed in a grab bag) would get me close to making that call..... We had a similar case last year. I (the MD) got called to a stage to talk with a shooter. He had already had one true squib, the RO had stopped him for another suspected squib, he had hit but failed to knock down a few steel targets, and everyone in the squad was commenting about the frequent pops mixed in with mostly not-very-loud bangs. The final straw was when a round stuck in a cardboard target and failed to go through (the target was on a wooden backer at the end of the range). I talked with the shooter and he admitted that he was short of ammo and had grabbed some older stuff that he thought was OK but now wasn't so sure. Unfortunately it was all mixed up with his good stuff in an ammo box. By mutual decision, he stopped shooting. If he had not, I might have been forced to make the decision for him. Just too much chance of a missed squib and a kaboom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Some people have pretty low standards when it comes to the ammo they will shoot to the point some pretty unsafe ammo is used by them. I know one shooter who has blown up 2 guns in the last year due to bad reloads. If A shooter has questionable ammo I sure do not wanna RO them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Some people have pretty low standards when it comes to the ammo they will shoot to the point some pretty unsafe ammo is used by them. I know one shooter who has blown up 2 guns in the last year due to bad reloads. If A shooter has questionable ammo I sure do not wanna RO them That's an interesting point. It can put the RO at risk as well as the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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