how come the Big Dogs don't seem to do the west coast matches

[Sandbagger123]

In my area, the PNW, they put on a pretty good yearly state championship. Been running for many years. Same with Idaho and Cali.

One thing i have noticed is that there is hardly any participation by the big dogs like Sevicney, Stogear or Vogel. had Nils J shoot the Wa one last year and thats about it.

So is there any particular reason they don't shoot on the west coast? Would an invitation perhaps convince them to come? Lot of people here i am confident would love to see people of this skill level shoot.

[Steve RA]

Possibly just the increased travel costs, or perhaps conflicting dates with much closer matches to their base.

[freeidaho]

I suspect it is all about the resume. Vogel's sponsors or anyone in the shooting industry would not care if he added 2014 Idaho State IDPA ESP Champion to his trophy wall or resume.

If we want to see him, we would need to pay for one of his classes to be held locally. Not a bad idea though.

We do get to see many of the big dogs for the MGM Iron Man 3-gun and MGM Man on Man competition, both held at Parma.

kr

Edited January 19, 2014 by freeidaho

[Woodsk]

the prize tables and payouts are bigger on the east coast.......oh yeah I forgot there is no pay out or prize table.

So the only reason for any big name shooters to go to an IDPA match is for the publicity. The only IDPA matches that get any publicity are the Carolina Cup, IDPA nationals and S&W indoor nationals. So there is literally no benefit to any national level shooter in going to a state match that gets virtually no press.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Woodsk

[alma]

I think prize tables (or lack thereof) down have a factor. Same goes for matches with tables there almost all prizes go as raffle.

I think it does cost money to travel and shoot even for most sponsored shooters so if you have a choice then go where you might come away with a prize gun or something.

I have heard that even at major USPSA matches that the last 15 years have seen a lot smaller of a prize table even at Nationals. Not sure if that is because there are so many nationals now or whatnot other reasons have caused the shift but the days of the top 10 walking away with a gun from the prize table may be gone.

I talked to on of the legendary GMs last summer who said that this is why he has shifted his focus to 3 gun. More potential sponsors and a better payout. In his words, if he finishes to 50 in a major event then he can win enough to break even.

[Craig N]

Like they say, if your shooting to win a prize off the table, you're better off just spending money for the gun, ammo and fees and buy the item you want.

[xdcr]

I didn't think Sevigny or Stoeger are shooting many, if any, IDPA matches anywhere.

[Woodsk]

Like they say, if your shooting to win a prize off the table, you're better off just spending money for the gun, ammo and fees and buy the item you want.

its not the prize table that matters to the big shooters, its the payouts and sponsor exposure. only 3 IDPA matches in the country get any sponsor exposure. IDPA is specifically designed to keep the kind of shooters who want to compete at the highest levels out of the pastime. A quick read of the first 5 pages of the rule book and that will be obvious.

[xdcr]

Many of the top shooters also offer classes which makes their time valuable.

[trgt]

Many of the top shooters also offer classes which makes their time valuable.

Some come to the west coast for classes - top of mind I know of Vogel and Michel each with SF Bay Area classes in May.

[rowdyb]

I shoot west coast matches. But I am not big dog, just a pup.

I think it's just a matter of perception to be honest. IDPA seems to be bigger in the south and east. Also the depth of talent seems to be greater there as well. Since none of the shooters you mentioned live west of the Rockies, why bother flying out here for something perceived to be less than matches closer to home.

Until the west coast gets something like the Carolina Cup, Masters and other regional level matches I doubt you'll see the big dogs out west much unless they have something like a class to sweeten the deal.

[Strick]

I don't know what is considered a "top dog" but I can say I have won my share of matches and here is my take on it.

Top shooters aren't going to spend the travel money to go half way across the country for a 10 stage/120 round match with 100-120 shooters. I also don't think they are interested to shoot matches that have 1 maybe 2 MA's to shoot against. Unless there is a reason for them to be there it is tough to justify the expense.

I don't think prize tables play a huge role in it however I would bet that many would like to get rewarded for their shooting performance beyond a 1x6 with some etching on it. Do the rules play a part in things? I would say that is a yes, specifically the new rules. You can make your own mind up if they are good or bad but I think they do a lot to keep the real good shooters away from traveling to IDPA matches beyond the big 3.

[Glock3422]

If you can't get Duane Thomas to shoot it, what chance do you have getting a big name to travel?

[motosapiens]

Are you talking about IDPA or uspsa? I see lots of big dogs at USPSA area matches, not so much at state/sectional matches. Are there actually any 'big dogs' in IDPA? Vogel is a top 10 uspsa shooter that also does IDPA, but he seems like about the only one.

Edited January 21, 2014 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

I suspect it is all about the resume. Vogel's sponsors or anyone in the shooting industry would not care if he added 2014 Idaho State IDPA ESP Champion to his trophy wall or resume.

If we want to see him, we would need to pay for one of his classes to be held locally. Not a bad idea though.

Pretty sure there is one the first week of june. maybe I'm thinking of someone else tho, that time of year is a no-go for a weekend class for me.

[xdcr]

Are you talking about IDPA or uspsa? I see lots of big dogs at USPSA area matches, not so much at state/sectional matches. Are there actually any 'big dogs' in IDPA? Vogel is a top 10 uspsa shooter that also does IDPA, but he seems like about the only one.

It is the IDPA shooting section...

[PSSOH22]

When it comes to "big dogs" Vogel and Miculek are about it in IDPA. Im pretty sure Jerry shoots IDPA 1. because he knows he isn't going to lose and 2. S&W probably pushes him into it because they put a lot into IDPA. I am sure if/when Bob loses Nationals(which i highly doubt will happen any time this century lol) he will not shoot it anymore either. If you've taken classes with Bob, you know what sport he prefers. There are definitely some really good shooters in IDPA such as Morgan, Brandon Wright, Lentz, Glenn Shelby to name a few but Bob is really the only one to have a lot of success in other disciplines, but I know a lot of the top DM's and Masters that were not shooting USPSA through this year are starting to transition in this coming year so it will be interesting to see how they fare

[Sac Law Man]

Build it and they will come... Like mentioned above,, I think if the west coast matches really gained in popularity the bigger names will shoot. Also, I think most of the real big names shoot matches close to home, except the big 3 matches. Taran Butler shot Nev IDPA Championship in Vegas a few years ago, but hes from CA. Curt NIchols and a couple of guys traveled from AR and shot the CA state 2 years ago, hes a DM. Some talk about the gun laws in CA being a factor but they arent as restrictive as MA, and this doesnt seem to affect the Indoor Natls in MA. At last years Indoor Natl's a few of us talked to Joyce Wilson about hosting the Natl's in CA. We have the ranges and the weather. She talked about the gun laws, but said its not out of the realm of possibility.

Last year at the CA state match we had 170 shooters. We had a lot of good Master shooters. This year we want to attract more out of state shootes.

[rowdyb]

In the competitive world to the "big dogs" idpa is less important than uspsa. Vogel left the idpa nats early so that he could shoot the uspsa nats last year. And in uspsa you get prizes based on finishing order rather than the rule dictated random in idpa.

Uspsa has more matches, more shooters and more "status" as a competitive shooting sport. So, first you have to get them to shoot a major idpa match. Then you have to get them to travel to the west coast to do it. Extra travel, no prize, not much recognition, the chance you might lose, smaller matches and I can see why they don't.

Until you can actually pay the rent from shooting idpa state matches the big dogs just wont really go to lots of state matches.

How many shooters do you think can get sponsorship covering travel, entry fees, lodging, ammo and gun? You'd need that level of support plus some sort of incentive bonus from your sponsors for winning.

I think a contingency program like seen in motorcycle racing would change things drastically. But the rank and file idpa member I don't think really cares that much about competition so much as having a good time.

To paraphrase Scott Russell, "I may not always like guns, but I always like winning." If there weren't scores and awards I wouldn't shoot idpa. For me it is all about the competition.

If you're already a big dog, you already have a good resume. Winning a state idpa match, no matter how well it's run isn't going to boost your career at that stage. But if you had the chance to make money....... that'd change the story.

[Forrest Halley]

Unless they're factory sponsored shooters with a "vested" interest in the IDPA market, there is little incentive. Without comparing apples to oranges, there is no money and the equipment from other sports doesn't readily translate. Glock and S&W are about the only firearm manufacturers that really seem to care about the discipline. There's what two competitive all around platforms? M&P9/45 and the G21/34/17? Didn't count the XDm because it's not really all around and 1911's aren't a protected species here so they were left out also. Smith has the revolvers bound up tight with Jerry, Josh and Craig and indoor happens at their plant...they're not going to lose.

[Loves2Shoot]

Try getting into a match that one has a 100 or so slots after match staff. I missed out twice in the last 2 years trying to shoot in WA matches. That isn't a lot of exposure or challenge for a "top dog" that is coming from across the country. I also think that for WA in particular, the club that decided no photos or videos didn't help draw shooters who rely on exposure to pay the bills.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Loves2Shoot

[Sac Law Man]

_{I agree Scott,, Also, for the price you pay to shoot WA, you get very little in return.}

Edited January 23, 2014 by Sac Law Man

[PSSOH22]

Try getting into a match that one has a 100 or so slots after match staff. I missed out twice in the last 2 years trying to shoot in WA matches. That isn't a lot of exposure or challenge for a "top dog" that is coming from across the country. I also think that for WA in particular, the club that decided no photos or videos didn't help draw shooters who rely on exposure to pay the bills.

Being over on the east coast, I didn't hear anything about this. What was the deal with the WA ST match? What could have possibly been their logic behind not allowing photos? To me, that sounds like all you west coasters should boycott the shit out of that match!

[rowdyb]

It costs me almost just as much to go to Alabama or North Carolina or Arkansas as it does to go to Washington. The field of competitors is deeper in my opinion in the South. So I go there, compared to doing stuff closer to where I live.

I wouldn't shoot a match that didn't let me wear my gopro on my head or let friends take pictures of me.

[Loves2Shoot]

Try getting into a match that one has a 100 or so slots after match staff. I missed out twice in the last 2 years trying to shoot in WA matches. That isn't a lot of exposure or challenge for a "top dog" that is coming from across the country. I also think that for WA in particular, the club that decided no photos or videos didn't help draw shooters who rely on exposure to pay the bills.

Being over on the east coast, I didn't hear anything about this. What was the deal with the WA ST match? What could have possibly been their logic behind not allowing photos? To me, that sounds like all you west coasters should boycott the shit out of that match!

We did. They had 5 Masters that I know of skip that match. It is to far to go to shoot under that type of tyranny. I wanted to go back once they moved it, but I missed out with the small number of shooters allowed to shoot for the amount of shooters up there. There are some great people up there to shoot with so it sucked to miss it.