Drawing; Grip Fast Or Smooth?

[gearguywb]

Speed on the draw (in most cases) is pretty worthless. The difference between mediocrity and fast is somewhere around .15 seconds. .15 seconds on a stage. Meaningless. Worth about 1 point on most stages.

OTOH, if you can reduce the target transition time by .10 of a second, and there are 10 transitions on a stage…now we are talking a real difference!

[saibot]

Speed on the draw (in most cases) is pretty worthless. The difference between mediocrity and fast is somewhere around .15 seconds. .15 seconds on a stage. Meaningless. Worth about 1 point on most stages.

OTOH, if you can reduce the target transition time by .10 of a second, and there are 10 transitions on a stage…now we are talking a real difference!

Indeed! Great advice, but why not speed up both?

[gearguywb]

Speed on the draw (in most cases) is pretty worthless. The difference between mediocrity and fast is somewhere around .15 seconds. .15 seconds on a stage. Meaningless. Worth about 1 point on most stages.

OTOH, if you can reduce the target transition time by .10 of a second, and there are 10 transitions on a stage…now we are talking a real difference!

Indeed! Great advice, but why not speed up both?

Indeed! But not at the sacrifice of getting the correct grip on the gun to begin the stage.

Too many times while teaching I have had shooters tell me how fast their draw is or how fast they can shoot a split on an open target. Both things are fairly meaningless on the majority of the stages. The real work begins after stage analysis and understanding where the biggest chunks of time are spent, then coming up with a plan to reduce those numbers. I always remind them, (with very few exceptions) that you only draw the gun once on a stage.

[saibot]

Speed on the draw (in most cases) is pretty worthless. The difference between mediocrity and fast is somewhere around .15 seconds. .15 seconds on a stage. Meaningless. Worth about 1 point on most stages.

OTOH, if you can reduce the target transition time by .10 of a second, and there are 10 transitions on a stage…now we are talking a real difference!

Indeed! Great advice, but why not speed up both?

Indeed! But not at the sacrifice of getting the correct grip on the gun to begin the stage.

Too many times while teaching I have had shooters tell me how fast their draw is or how fast they can shoot a split on an open target. Both things are fairly meaningless on the majority of the stages. The real work begins after stage analysis and understanding where the biggest chunks of time are spent, then coming up with a plan to reduce those numbers. I always remind them, (with very few exceptions) that you only draw the gun once on a stage.

I wouldn't argue with that statement at all! And actually with the little experience I have shooting I wouldn't argue with anyone here anyway.

I guess I would put the "super fast draw" as a component of shooting good classifier times since it seems that you have to go all zone 3 to get a good time on them (since the occasional "Hail Mary" gets lucky and pushes those out of match speed for the said class). Do you find you have a different draw speed for a classifier stage than you do for a field stage?

Thanks for the info!

[BillD]

Not "or"

You're looking for "and"

Grip fast AND smooth.

How is your stance, grip, draw, and extension to your natural point of aim?

Figure it out and do it dry until you can't do it wrong

Or until you get tendonitis

[GOF]

If you can draw and hit a target in .5 seconds, that's nice. If that hit happens to be a IDPA -3 (1.5 second scoring penalty) or a ICORE Charlie (2 second penalty) or a USPSA C or Mike, then that time penalty should, realistically, be added to your draw time... which now seems quite slow!

Take the extra time to get a proper grip on the gun in the holster and shoot a 'perfect no penalty' first shot, and your 'draw time' now looks a lot better.

Drawing the gun, as noted above, is just the start of things. You still have to make good hits on the target.... rush the draw, get a bad grip, and you've 'screwed the pooch'.

[gearguywb]

Speed on the draw (in most cases) is pretty worthless. The difference between mediocrity and fast is somewhere around .15 seconds. .15 seconds on a stage. Meaningless. Worth about 1 point on most stages.

OTOH, if you can reduce the target transition time by .10 of a second, and there are 10 transitions on a stage…now we are talking a real difference!

Indeed! Great advice, but why not speed up both?

Indeed! But not at the sacrifice of getting the correct grip on the gun to begin the stage.

Too many times while teaching I have had shooters tell me how fast their draw is or how fast they can shoot a split on an open target. Both things are fairly meaningless on the majority of the stages. The real work begins after stage analysis and understanding where the biggest chunks of time are spent, then coming up with a plan to reduce those numbers. I always remind them, (with very few exceptions) that you only draw the gun once on a stage.

I wouldn't argue with that statement at all! And actually with the little experience I have shooting I wouldn't argue with anyone here anyway.

I guess I would put the "super fast draw" as a component of shooting good classifier times since it seems that you have to go all zone 3 to get a good time on them (since the occasional "Hail Mary" gets lucky and pushes those out of match speed for the said class). Do you find you have a different draw speed for a classifier stage than you do for a field stage?

Thanks for the info!

Classifiers are all a bit of a crap shoot. Too many people shoot them over and over again to get a good score to send in. They are just hurting themselves. The best shooters are the ones that consistently work on getting better, and the majority of the classifiers come from shooting major matches. That's the real test!

[theblacknight]

Classifiers are all a bit of a crap shoot. Too many people shoot them over and over again to get a good score to send in. They are just hurting themselves. The best shooters are the ones that consistently work on getting better, and the majority of the classifiers come from shooting major matches. That's the real test!

I've noticed this pervasive attitude a lot more lately. It tends to come from shooters who self profess to be "bad at the pressure" of knowing that local matches "dont really matter" sans the classifier, so they fashion themselves as a good "field stage shooter" because they feel they typically bomb classifiers but shoot very well the rest of the match. Not soon after, jealousy and the catty finger pointing of "grand/sandbagger" gets thrown around and soon, a practical shooting game starts to represent talks like The View or TMZ between people who bomb classifiers and people who do VERY well at them.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-faq-details.php

I feel that people have unrealistic expectations for what exactly the classification system does. The average shooter doesnt have a ton of Area and Nationals % on their record. Shooting big matches takes a big commitment and not everyone has the resources. Most classifiers are stand and shoot and most have a reload stuck in the middle of 8-12 rounds. So that's what the systems mainly tests on,marksmanship and gun handling skills. It DOES NOT test your ability to taylor your stage plan to fit your divison and the unique stage requirements and HF that truly freestyle major match stages require.

Once people start to actually understand what the system does and does not, then they can stop putting soo much stock into those little letters and just try to shoot their best match XX% be damned.

[flack jacket]

Speed on the draw (in most cases) is pretty worthless. The difference between mediocrity and fast is somewhere around .15 seconds. .15 seconds on a stage. Meaningless. Worth about 1 point on most stages.

OTOH, if you can reduce the target transition time by .10 of a second, and there are 10 transitions on a stage…now we are talking a real difference!

Indeed! Great advice, but why not speed up both?

Indeed! But not at the sacrifice of getting the correct grip on the gun to begin the stage.

Too many times while teaching I have had shooters tell me how fast their draw is or how fast they can shoot a split on an open target. Both things are fairly meaningless on the majority of the stages. The real work begins after stage analysis and understanding where the biggest chunks of time are spent, then coming up with a plan to reduce those numbers. I always remind them, (with very few exceptions) that you only draw the gun once on a stage.

I wouldn't argue with that statement at all! And actually with the little experience I have shooting I wouldn't argue with anyone here anyway.

I guess I would put the "super fast draw" as a component of shooting good classifier times since it seems that you have to go all zone 3 to get a good time on them (since the occasional "Hail Mary" gets lucky and pushes those out of match speed for the said class). Do you find you have a different draw speed for a classifier stage than you do for a field stage?

Thanks for the info!

Classifiers are all a bit of a crap shoot. Too many people shoot them over and over again to get a good score to send in. They are just hurting themselves. The best shooters are the ones that consistently work on getting better, and the majority of the classifiers come from shooting major matches. That's the real test!

Good points...

May I ask this? If the best shooters are the ones that consistently work on getting better, wouldn't it "a super fast draw" be on that skills lists?

I understand how you all feel that the draw is not as important in the "game" Since one would draw a limited amount of times in a match.

I felt the same way until I learned about Steel Challenge, I found that increasing my overall skill as a shooter in every aspect is important, not just pick out bits and pieces where they are advantageous to the game.

Good thread!

[gearguywb]

You are correct Flack, if you start talking Steel Challenge or the Masters then the draw time becomes far more important than it does in IPSC.

I am not saying that draw times are unimportant in IPSC, but they rank fairly far down the list in terms of payback. As you said, there is usually only one draw per stage, and on top of that, many stages do not start with a "draw", rather gun on the table, something else in your hands, run to the first shooting position, etc. All of which negate the draw speed.

[BillD]

Yes there are times when you have to run to a position or pick up your gun, negating the draw speed. But if you are pulling 1.4 draws and your opponent is doing it in 0.9, you are a half second behind after one shot being fired.

[gearguywb]

I agree but you may be taking it out of context. My point was there are a lot of ways to compress time that yield better results than focusing on the draw.

If someone is cutting a .9 to your 1.4 it is probably a safe assumption that you are in much different classes!

[GOF]

Yes there are times when you have to run to a position or pick up your gun, negating the draw speed. But if you are pulling 1.4 draws and your opponent is doing it in 0.9, you are a half second behind after one shot being fired.

And the hit from their first shot on the draw is?

If you don't get a proper grip on the gun in the holster and drill something other than a Alpha on the draw, then that penalty time should be add to your 'super fast draw time'.

Now, that 'super fast draw time' may not look so 'super fast'.

Just a thought....

[Chris iliff]

I remember reading something Vogel said about his draw. Basically to paraphrase he said his draw had a little built in hitch if you watched it. Almost a pause/hiccup, this was him making sure his grip was perfect. He took the time to ensure his grip was good before pulling the gun.

With practice we have more than enough time to perfect our grip before drawing. During the draw, this should be our only concern, get a good grip established............

it is the foundation of the rest of the journey.

[flack jacket]

You are correct Flack, if you start talking Steel Challenge or the Masters then the draw time becomes far more important than it does in IPSC.

I am not saying that draw times are unimportant in IPSC, but they rank fairly far down the list in terms of payback. As you said, there is usually only one draw per stage, and on top of that, many stages do not start with a "draw", rather gun on the table, something else in your hands, run to the first shooting position, etc. All of which negate the draw speed.

I'll have to disagree...

I feel it's all perspective. Isn't training/ practice the journey for overall skill? Or practicing just for a particular game?

In your perspective, gains are found in other aspects of the game, that I agree.

My question is, why "down play" a skill that can be learned well even though it offers less in payback in a particular game? Like saying, "eh my draw sucks, so I won't practice it, i'll work on transitions"

Whereas the shooter can train and become proficient in EVERY aspect of fundamentals including, a fast, accurate draw, unloaded starts, hands on table, etc.

I read somewhere, if you have the control to be good at a skill, why not be good at it?

Yes there are times when you have to run to a position or pick up your gun, negating the draw speed. But if you are pulling 1.4 draws and your opponent is doing it in 0.9, you are a half second behind after one shot being fired.

And the hit from their first shot on the draw is?

If you don't get a proper grip on the gun in the holster and drill something other than a Alpha on the draw, then that penalty time should be add to your 'super fast draw time'.

Now, that 'super fast draw time' may not look so 'super fast'.

Just a thought....

That's my point... train for the 0.9 or faster first shot draw with alpha. Both can be done,spot on, not necessarily one or the other.

Happy New year!

[Sac Law Man]

Any time you get good at something your gunna look smooth.. smooth is not slow, smooth is being good. Its like the golf swing... good golfers look smooth, but many are killing it. Look at Fred Couples,, One of the smoothest swings of all time, also one of the games longest hitters, there is nothing slow about his swing, in fact its faster than normal. Practice your draw a lot and in time you will grove your draw and it will appear smooth, regardless of speed.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Sac Law Man

[mgardner]

Usually the fastest draw is accomplished from a relaxed state of readiness. If you are tense( some guys actually shake) you take time to relax the opposing muscles before you can move to the gun. Relaxed and smooth is fast.

[Chris_C]

The optimal draw comes from practicing as many times as it takes to do it both fast and reliably. This comes easiest by using par times in dry fire to push the times down. Smooth should not be a measurable parameter here, just speed and reliability.

[DanRobinson]

Don't forget to go "snake eyed"....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0zC22C4RM

[leemoe83]

A lot of shooters seem to think that stand and shoot skills are not worth their time but if they ever progress to the point of competing for a sectional or area win, those stand and shoot skills can make the difference. You have to start somewhere and if your draw sucks you should probably improve it. Look at 2013 nationals, if you didn't have classifier skills you where hosed. If a new shooter came to me asking where to start I would tell them to work on stand and shoot skills, that will keep them busy for a year.

[peacemaker25]

If you can't stand and shoot, I'm not sure what makes you think you can move and shoot. The stuff classifiers test are the basic skills matches are made of.

[Moltke]

It all matters.

That's the difference between the GM's and the rest of us.

It all matters, they know it, they do it... all.

[Ross Carter]

Yup like Pat said:

Slow is smooth and smooth is FAST!

This will probably start an uproar, but this is the most misused quote I. The shooting world. Slow is slow. Fast is fast. The goal is to be soooo smooth you are fast.

Have fun

No uproar from me, I hate seeing how bastardized this quote is. Smooth is Fast. period The next part is that jerky movements look fast but are in fact slow. Back in the day hand speed was a big thing, guys that had lightning movements to the gun, hesitation while they got a grip, then lightning to the target followed by a long pause waiting for the sights to stop quivering so they could shoot. Unless it was a 3yd target, just as likely a 25 or 50yd back then, it was slooow. But it looked fast. Electronic timers came along and the truth was exposed.

Slow is not fast never was never can be.

[StraightUp_OG]

Since it seems to be a bone of contention can one of you proponents of the quote being misused provide proof of origin and the original quote?

Opinion is not empirical data.

Festina lente

Edited January 23, 2014 by StraightUp_OG

[Nimitz]

If you can't stand and shoot, I'm not sure what makes you think you can move and shoot. The stuff classifiers test are the basic skills matches are made of.

This is one of the reasons more people can't make GM, they skipped one of the fundamental shooting skills building blocks for our sport ... How people believe they can learn to shoot accuractly at speed with movement if they can't do it while standing still is beyond me.

Read Ben Stoeger's books ... He is a big proponent to learn to stand and shoot at speed first . Try his "10 drills to master" and see how close you can get to his listed goals.

As for draw speed, it is critically important in classifiers and short field courses and SC. For longer field courses you may be moving immediately after the timer goes off so your draw is sucked up by movement and is less critical ...

That being said, how many top shooters do you know that have 1.3 sec draws to an open 10 yd target ...?