DA/SA Platform realistic ?

[sroe3]

The DA is a slight disadvantage on the first shot but for all the follow ups shots the steel frame gun with the tuned SA trigger has the advantage.

[Alaskapopo]

The DA is a slight disadvantage on the first shot but for all the follow ups shots the steel frame gun with the tuned SA trigger has the advantage.

A heavier gun is better for pairs but slower on transitions so I would not say it has the advantage. Its arguable. As for a SA trigger on a DA gun vs a Glock trigger again highly debatable.

Pat

[Strick]

I have shot both and won with both. Winning a sanctioned match and competing at that level has very little to do with whether the first shot is DA, it is much more about finding the platform that works best for you and using a platform that allows you to repeat the grip, reloads, draw, etc,, consistently. Find that platform and use it.

For all the worry people have with a DA first shot you would think that every first shot is on a 20 yard partial with a no-shoot.

[Alaskapopo]

I have shot both and won with both. Winning a sanctioned match and competing at that level has very little to do with whether the first shot is DA, it is much more about finding the platform that works best for you and using a platform that allows you to repeat the grip, reloads, draw, etc,, consistently. Find that platform and use it.

For all the worry people have with a DA first shot you would think that every first shot is on a 20 yard partial with a no-shoot.

Its still a disadvantage. How much of a disadvantage depends on the stage set up and number of rounds fired. Personally I am not a fan of having to learn two trigger pulls for one gun. Like you said its mostly the shooter. But we are debating equipment here not shooters.

Pat

Edited November 23, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Strick]

You are debating equipment, I am stating that equipment is not relevant as long as it is setup how the shooter wants and the shooter is comfortable with it.

[Alaskapopo]

You are debating equipment, I am stating that equipment is not relevant as long as it is setup how the shooter wants and the shooter is comfortable with it.

I disagree. You can be comfortable with a system and simply not know something out there would be faster for you because you did not try it. Equipment is relevant in my opinion. There is a reason why winners gravitate towards certain set ups.

Pat

[bikerburgess]

So are you saying that DA/SA is better or are you saying that the winners in production are gravitating toward a inferior system?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Magsz]

What is this garbage about two trigger pulls?

Pressing a trigger is pressing a trigger...

I dont give a damned whether its a 50 yard target or a 3 yard target on the draw.

Draw, align sights, press trigger, repeat until the course of fire is over.

To the OP. If you LIKE your DA/SA gun and you perform well with it, rock on. The hardware is far less important than the physical hardware, ie your body and your brain and the software interface, ie your ability to mentally map out a course of fire and shoot on auto pilot than a stupid gun...

Seriously...

[Alaskapopo]

What is this garbage about two trigger pulls?

Pressing a trigger is pressing a trigger...

I dont give a damned whether its a 50 yard target or a 3 yard target on the draw.

Draw, align sights, press trigger, repeat until the course of fire is over.

To the OP. If you LIKE your DA/SA gun and you perform well with it, rock on. The hardware is far less important than the physical hardware, ie your body and your brain and the software interface, ie your ability to mentally map out a course of fire and shoot on auto pilot than a stupid gun...

Seriously...

If that is the case then we should all just run stock triggers on our guns after all pressing the trigger is pressing the trigger. Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. A longer DA 10 pound pull is different from a short light SA 3 pound pull. As a LEO firearms instructor I have seen shooters struggle for years with DA SA designs and when the move was made to Glocks and other single trigger pull systems scores went up.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

So are you saying that DA/SA is better or are you saying that the winners in production are gravitating toward a inferior system?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

1. Eric Grauffel*
2. Ben Stoeger
3. Dave Sevigny
4. Rob Leatham

Results from 2013 Productions Nationals.

So Ben Stoeger uses a DA SA what about the others? Pretty sure Sevigny and Letham were not using DA SA pistols.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[kneelingatlas]

Vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate!!!

[bikerburgess]

So are you saying that DA/SA is better or are you saying that the winners in production are gravitating toward a inferior system?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Eric Grauffel*

Ben Stoeger

Dave Sevigny

Rob Leatham

Results from 2013 Productions Nationals.

So Ben Stoeger uses a DA SA what about the others? Pretty sure Sevigny and Letham were not using DA SA pistols.

Yep 1 and 2 are DA/SA I believe last year it was 1,2,3

I belive that between DA/SA and a striker fired it really is a wash and it all comes down to the shooter. Between a good SA and a striker fired there is more difference but it still comes down to the shooter. As in open this year 1st SA 2nd Glock

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[sjz]

Vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate!!!

Vanilla/chocolate swirl is better !

[cnote]

Worked production nationals and can't wait for the survey. Chrono confirmed my estimate of well over 50% of all were shooting DA/SA. Glock will not be the #1 firearm represented this year. There was a scattering of m&p and xd's

...... So a majority of production shooters say it is not a disadvantage ......

[GmanCdp]

On the plus side for a revolver shooter,the transition to a DA auto is much more easy for them..

[Blueridge]

Maybe it is just me, but the only time that the DA trigger press comes into play on a stage is basically only on the first shot. The rest of the time the SA trigger press will be used. The disadvantage, if there is one (I personally don't think there is), would only be on that first shot.

My personal opinion is that a competitor should use what feels and works best for them. There is a whole range of handguns and revolvers out there and one of them should work well for just about any shooter.

I myself primarily shoot revolver (ESR) whith a ruger that has approximately a 12lb (from the few test I have done it is approximately 14lbs.) stock trigger pull. Pretty much any trigger press lower than that feels light to me. No matter the trigger type (DA/SA, DAO, SA, or Striker fired) they are not that big of a deal to me.

[Magsz]

What is this garbage about two trigger pulls?

Pressing a trigger is pressing a trigger...

I dont give a damned whether its a 50 yard target or a 3 yard target on the draw.

Draw, align sights, press trigger, repeat until the course of fire is over.

To the OP. If you LIKE your DA/SA gun and you perform well with it, rock on. The hardware is far less important than the physical hardware, ie your body and your brain and the software interface, ie your ability to mentally map out a course of fire and shoot on auto pilot than a stupid gun...

Seriously...

If that is the case then we should all just run stock triggers on our guns after all pressing the trigger is pressing the trigger. Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. A longer DA 10 pound pull is different from a short light SA 3 pound pull. As a LEO firearms instructor I have seen shooters struggle for years with DA SA designs and when the move was made to Glocks and other single trigger pull systems scores went up.

Who said anything about stock triggers? Your analogy doesnt fit the bill in this particular instance.

Quite frankly, i really dont care about your LEO qualifications or what your scores show. In addition, LEO's are on the bottom rung when it comes to actually being competent shooters. There are exceptions to the rule but they are just that, exceptions. I also dont use stock guns for carry or competition and most of the people on this forum probably mirror that sentiment.

Neither system is better, each has its advantages, period, end of story. If the OP likes his DA/SA gun then he should train with it to the fullest extend of his abilities.

[Alaskapopo]

What is this garbage about two trigger pulls?

Pressing a trigger is pressing a trigger...

I dont give a damned whether its a 50 yard target or a 3 yard target on the draw.

Draw, align sights, press trigger, repeat until the course of fire is over.

To the OP. If you LIKE your DA/SA gun and you perform well with it, rock on. The hardware is far less important than the physical hardware, ie your body and your brain and the software interface, ie your ability to mentally map out a course of fire and shoot on auto pilot than a stupid gun...

Seriously...

If that is the case then we should all just run stock triggers on our guns after all pressing the trigger is pressing the trigger. Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. A longer DA 10 pound pull is different from a short light SA 3 pound pull. As a LEO firearms instructor I have seen shooters struggle for years with DA SA designs and when the move was made to Glocks and other single trigger pull systems scores went up.

Who said anything about stock triggers? Your analogy doesnt fit the bill in this particular instance.

Quite frankly, i really dont care about your LEO qualifications or what your scores show. In addition, LEO's are on the bottom rung when it comes to actually being competent shooters. There are exceptions to the rule but they are just that, exceptions. I also dont use stock guns for carry or competition and most of the people on this forum probably mirror that sentiment.

Neither system is better, each has its advantages, period, end of story. If the OP likes his DA/SA gun then he should train with it to the fullest extend of his abilities.

Quite frankly I take offense to your comments and they do no match my experience as a LEO and as a competitive shooter. Many of the really good competitive shooters are LEO's. As a LEO I do quite well at the matches up here and in fact did fairly well at the last major three gun I went to. Granted competition shooters are the best of the best because they make a life of shooting better. However that said LEO's are far from the bottom rung. I have seen the bottom rung at local ranges. The bottom rung is shooters with no training who just go in and buy a gun and take it out shooting. I have seen far more incompetent gun handling with non LEO's vs LEO's. Seems that cop bashing is a popular sport with some here. Also your opinion is not the end of story.

Pat

Edited November 27, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Magsz]

Cop Bashing? What is that, a new division within USPSA? Seriously, get over it.

The OP wanted to know if the DA/SA mechanism was competitive. The answer is simple:

Hardware means jack all. Some will be better than others, some have significant advantages over others but so long as the gun is reliable and accurate, who cares. Make it sing and have fun.

[Alaskapopo]

Cop Bashing? What is that, a new division within USPSA? Seriously, get over it.

The OP wanted to know if the DA/SA mechanism was competitive. The answer is simple:

Hardware means jack all. Some will be better than others, some have significant advantages over others but so long as the gun is reliable and accurate, who cares. Make it sing and have fun.

Moving on.

The shooter is definitely a much larger part of the equation but equipment matters. If it didn't we would not be constantly trying new gear for a slight edge on the competition. Saying equipment does not matter is not accurate and frankly is not honest. I have won some matches by having better equipment than my friends who were similar in skill or even better. You're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine.

Pat

Edited November 28, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Stony Lane]

Aren't the best shooters moving to the DA/SA guns so they can shoot the same gun for USPSA and IPSC? Even IF the polymer guns had a slight advantage with a consistent trigger pull, the competitor would need to switch guns (or, at least, a heavier trigger pull) for international competition.

Fear Not, The Double Action Shot!

by Ernest Langdon

The traditional double action pistol, long feared by the competitive shooter, is quickly becoming a force to be reckoned with in some types of competitive pistol shooting. With the growing popularity of IDPA and Production Class in IPSC, the double action pistol is becoming a popular option for competitive shooters around the globe.

But, there has long been a stigma associated with the double action pistol. It has seen very little action in mainstream competition. When you ask shooters why they don’t shoot a double action in competition there are two main reasons that come up. First, it is too hard or too slow to shoot a double action first shot. Second, they don’t like having two different trigger pulls. Lets focus on the first reason for now, the dreaded double action first shot.

To develop speed and accuracy with the double action trigger we need to start with accuracy. The speed will mean nothing if you don’t hit the target. Start by shooting groups in double action only. Your group size and the location of the groups should be the same as your single action groups; that’s the goal anyway. Some shooters will find that with proper technique they can shoot a tighter group in double action than in single action.

The key to double action accuracy is keeping the trigger moving. Don’t try and stage the trigger to the point right before the hammer drops. This is a bad habit and will cause what is often called “Now Syndrome!” This is when the shooter stages or preps the trigger to the point right before it is going to break, then cleans up the sight picture so it is perfect and tries to make the shot break “NOW.” The “Now Syndrome” almost always causes the sights and the shot to move off the intended target. Keep the sights in your “aiming area” and keep the trigger moving. (Obviously, if the sights move way off or out of your aiming area, stop pulling the trigger) Try and think of the trigger pull as a “trigger stroke,” and pull through with one smooth stroke of the trigger.

At first, shoot at a close target that is fairly large, maybe seven or ten yards and try for a group. As your groups get smaller, move the target back. Don’t be afraid to shoot groups at fifty yards or more. It can’t hurt.

Once you’re confident with your ability to make an accurate double action shot, pick up the pace. Start working on the time it takes to “pull through” the double action trigger stroke. Remember, speed means nothing if you miss the target.

The next step is to start working back to the holster. That’s right, work back to the holster, not from the holster. The next thing to work on is the presentation of the pistol to the target. Start from what is normally called the ready position. This is the point in the draw where the hands come together, just off center to the strong side at the upper part of your abdomen. At this point the pistol should be pointed at the target and the trigger finger is still off the trigger. From this point forward is where you start to gain speed with the double action first shot. From this ready position, every effort should be made to drive the pistol directly to the target. Imagine there is a laser coming out of the barrel and try and put that laser on the target and keep it there until that first shot breaks. (If you have a laser available it can be a great training tool).

As the pistol starts to move forward you should be able to pick up the position of the muzzle in your peripheral vision. As soon as you can see that the muzzle is on target, start pulling the trigger. This is where the speed of the first shot comes from. As the pistol goes out, the trigger comes back. Now it becomes a timing issue. As the pistol goes forward and comes up to your line of sight, you are trying to pull the trigger so that the hammer falls just as you clean up the sight picture. The last one to two inches of the presentation the sights should be almost perfect so if the shot breaks a little early you’re still going to hit the target. This is really no different than what most top shooters do with a single action pistol. They prep the trigger on the way out to the target and try and break the shot just as they clean up the sight picture.

With practice you will find that you can be very aggressive on close targets. Because you can have a lot of deviation in your sight alignment on close targets, you can break the shot very early in the draw stroke with all the accuracy that you need.

Once you feel comfortable with working from the ready position you can start working from the holster. Just like the double action trigger pull, think of the draw as a smooth stroke. Now all you have to do is combine the “draw stroke” with the “trigger stroke” and you will be nailing sub one-second draws in no time.

Once you master the double action first shot you will find you can shoot the traditional double action pistol with a great deal of speed and accuracy. It’s up to you, so get out there and start shooting.

[motosapiens]

Quite frankly I take offense to your comments and they do no match my experience as a LEO and as a competitive shooter. Many of the really good competitive shooters are LEO's. As a LEO I do quite well at the matches up here and in fact did fairly well at the last major three gun I went to. Granted competition shooters are the best of the best because they make a life of shooting better. However that said LEO's are far from the bottom rung. I have seen the bottom rung at local ranges. The bottom rung is shooters with no training who just go in and buy a gun and take it out shooting. I have seen far more incompetent gun handling with non LEO's vs LEO's. Seems that cop bashing is a popular sport with some here. Also your opinion is not the end of story.

Pat

No need to take offense. I agree that being an LEO might increase your firearms proficiency compared to the average joe in the street, but not compared to a serious gun guy. I work for an LE agency (as a support/data guy), and shoot with our officers regularly. The amount of practice the average LEO does (non-competitor) is totally dwarfed by the amount of practice a uspsa competitor does (most of our 300 officers only shoot at their quarterly quals).

I can easily see where someone that doesn't shoot seriously or do regular dryfire practice would have accuracy problems with DA/SA trigger, especially a duty-type trigger that is much heavier pull that what most of us use. However, the evidence is pretty clear that for people who practice, it is generally not an issue.

Moving on.

The shooter is definitely a much larger part of the equation but equipment matters. If it didn't we would not be constantly trying new gear for a slight edge on the competition. Saying equipment does not matter is not accurate and frankly is not honest. I have won some matches by having better equipment than my friends who were similar in skill or even better. You're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine.

Equipment *does* matter a very little bit, but the difference between tuned plastic guns and tuned metal da/sa guns is not going to win or lose a match, and in production division (similar to SSP) most of the top competitors choose metal DA/SA guns for some reason. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the rest of us are entitled to point out the scientific proof that your opinion is wrong in this instance.

[chirpy]

I shoot a CZ Phantom plastic fantastic that has had nothing done to it. The DA is great and the SA is even better! Have no problems with the transition. Will not hesitate to take the difficult shot DA.

Richard

[Alaskapopo]

Quite frankly I take offense to your comments and they do no match my experience as a LEO and as a competitive shooter. Many of the really good competitive shooters are LEO's. As a LEO I do quite well at the matches up here and in fact did fairly well at the last major three gun I went to. Granted competition shooters are the best of the best because they make a life of shooting better. However that said LEO's are far from the bottom rung. I have seen the bottom rung at local ranges. The bottom rung is shooters with no training who just go in and buy a gun and take it out shooting. I have seen far more incompetent gun handling with non LEO's vs LEO's. Seems that cop bashing is a popular sport with some here. Also your opinion is not the end of story.

Pat

No need to take offense. I agree that being an LEO might increase your firearms proficiency compared to the average joe in the street, but not compared to a serious gun guy. I work for an LE agency (as a support/data guy), and shoot with our officers regularly. The amount of practice the average LEO does (non-competitor) is totally dwarfed by the amount of practice a uspsa competitor does (most of our 300 officers only shoot at their quarterly quals).

I can easily see where someone that doesn't shoot seriously or do regular dryfire practice would have accuracy problems with DA/SA trigger, especially a duty-type trigger that is much heavier pull that what most of us use. However, the evidence is pretty clear that for people who practice, it is generally not an issue.

Moving on.

The shooter is definitely a much larger part of the equation but equipment matters. If it didn't we would not be constantly trying new gear for a slight edge on the competition. Saying equipment does not matter is not accurate and frankly is not honest. I have won some matches by having better equipment than my friends who were similar in skill or even better. You're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine.

Equipment *does* matter a very little bit, but the difference between tuned plastic guns and tuned metal da/sa guns is not going to win or lose a match, and in production division (similar to SSP) most of the top competitors choose metal DA/SA guns for some reason. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the rest of us are entitled to point out the scientific proof that your opinion is wrong in this instance.

Really scientific. Forgive me if I missed the studies you presented and testing parameters in those studies. (Sarcasm intended there is no scientific data in this thread so lets not claim that only opinion) It seems that people have a hard time reading what is posted. I already said competitors are the best shooters out there due to a love and dedication to shooting that keeps them on the range working to improve long after most have gone home. However LEO folks are very far from being on the lowest wrong as that poster smugly said. Hell as a LEO I have managed some how to take the production division with a Glock 17 at our states steel match. I also manage to come in generally in the top 3 at the three gun matches I attend up here even the state level ones. Even managed an 8th place finish in a major match last year. (42 shooters in open Texas Multigun Nationals). I think that part of the problem is us competition shooters tend to think of ourselves as normal shooters but we are not. We put a lot more time in than most shooters. That does not mean someone who is not as good sucks or is the bottom rung. I have seen shooters from the bottom rung all the way to the top and cops are now here near the bottom rung and some top level shooters happen to be cops.

On the equipment issue yes equipment is a small part of the pie but matches are won and lost sometimes with very small margins. I got beat my a friend of mine a month or so back by half a stage point. It matters.

Pat

Edited December 2, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[motosapiens]

On the equipment issue yes equipment is a small part of the pie but matches are won and lost sometimes with very small margins. I got beat my a friend of mine a month or so back by half a stage point. It matters.

It is more likely to be blind luck or the tiniest mistake in decision-making than equipment at that point. But it's good to have confidence in your equipment, even if it is based on myth.

And yes, the evidence on the side of SA/DA guns really *is* scientific, despite there not being a fancy scientific study sponsored by a bunch of democrats at a university. People with even a moderate statistical/probability background can look at the last few years results, and all will come to the same conclusion, which is that metal da/sa guns are certainly not any disadvantage, and are a probably a small advantage for serious competitors in IDPA/USPSA style shooting.

Edited December 2, 2013 by motosapiens