Federal primer seating

[buckaroo45]

I have a Carmonized 627PC that I need to get more precise in seating primers. I've had to increase trigger weight to 7 lbs to get 100% ignition with my reloads. (Dillon SDB) With my hands it also increases a small tug to the right. I can dry fire @ 5 lb and don't see any pulling so I'd like to take off those last 2 lbs.

It's generally given the primers should be pre crushed to .005-6 below flush to work with 5 lb triggers . The primers measure .120 thick and most of my mixed headstamp brass also measures .120 +/- .001 deep tho I've run across several that mic at .123. My question is when I run the cases thru my uniformer would it be useful to cut the depth to .121-2 to ensure consistency or would that create an issue with the pre crush factor? Would I need to pre crush to a measured .007-8 below flush? Would that create another issue with 100% ignition? BTW, I also have the Apex extended firing pin installed.

FWIW, removed, fired primers also measure .120 thick. I'm guessing they are fire formed back to flush via chamber pressure to match original thickness.

Or am I just being WAAAY to anal about this? I just want a 100% 5 lb trigger.

[alecmc]

Try seating at .008-.010 depth.

Edited November 17, 2013 by alecmc

[alecmc]

and i think you are over thinking it.

The primers that dont fire off, do they fire off the 2nd time around? if so - you arent seating them deep enough, the first whack of the hammer fully seats it, though doesnt fire, the next time around it lights off.

good luck.

[DougCarden]

Hand set to .008-.010 like Alec said. The problem should be solved.

DougC

[Ignatz]

I leave my Dillon 550 set up with the small primer system, and hand prime my 45 cases with a Lee Auto-Prime gadget. Not too expensive, and will eliminate your primer worries.

Both my Carmonized guns (625 & 627) are slightly under 6 lbs pull using my crude way of measuring the pull. I still have stock firing pins in my guns and have never touched a screw on the guns and have been 100% since day one.

Using a Lee Auto prime and seating the primers with a consistant seating pressure should do the trick. Don't smash them in, but just seat them firmly.

And some of us pack rats who have shot over the years have 45acp and 38spl thats been reloaded dozens of times. If a primer goes in way to easy and doesn't seem like it seats correctly, maybe throw that one out.

Some people have good luck with the Dillon priming system, but under 6lb pull revolvers might need hand seating the primers.

[revoman]

Dillon 650 large and small primers for my 610, 625 and 627 all primets seated with just an extrs shove at seating the primer. Thousands upon thousands of rounds for years never not had a primer go off because of not seated deep enough. I have Carmonized, Apex, Pinnacle, Prest and my own trigger jobs all ranging from 5 to 6.5 lbs. Two different 650's one for large and one for small primers nothing ever done to priming systems. Just my 2 cents.

[mikeAZ]

Why not try the "Cyl & Slide" longer firing pin? (Brownells, about $20 shipped) or another brand?.., maybe a simple fix.....Some local shooters add the " long pin" simply for added reliability, needed or not.

[toothguy]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181612

This was a learning experience for me. I thought the Apex firing pin (.495) and the C&S firing pin (.510) were the same length. It's not on the package and I never measured them. If you want a reliable 5.5 to 6lb pull you need to seat the primer fully forward so all the firing pin force is used for ignition. Push on the handle until you feel it seat then continue pressure and watch the shell plate torque backwards slightly about 1/8''. Use a .510 C&S firing pin and the same head stamp brass for consistency.

[buckaroo45]

Having followed the benos forum for several years I'm aware of all the above. I have also chamfered the business end of the SDB primer seating punch, double stroke to seat primers etc. and yes, they always go bang on the second try which pretty much screws up a stage. As for hand seating, I have neuropathy of the hands, some days worse than others. I have 2 hand seating presses, RCBS & Lee, and have better consistency with the Dillon.

I have 2 627's with trigger jobs. One by Mike C and the other by Jerry M via my hands back when I could still do precision work. My trigger, just over 7 lb, sets off my reloads 100%. Mikes trigger will too at 7 lb. Problem is, I want the 5 lb.

I've just ordered 4 of the C&S firing pins for my N frames. I may be breaking into muddy water with uniforming primer pockets. Seems I'll need to do a short batch of 100 pockets to .122 deep and pre crush the primers to .008 below flush and test the premis. I'll also pre measure pockets and eliminate anything already over .122 as I already found several that are .123 which may be part of the problem. As an engineering type, I'm just trying to eliminate any controllable variables + it keeps me out of the taverns. I have pocket uniformers inbound. I'll post results.

Thanks for all the comments.

Ron

D shooter - A poser & wanna be

ex Naval Carrier Aviator

NRA Life

USPSA FY63917

SoFla Pistol Club

[No.343]

Ron,

Google the Lee Ram Prime system. It goes on your single stage press and seats primers fully. It is what came with my press when I first started reloading. You don't have to squeeze a priming tool with this setup. Unfortunately, you have to place the primers individually into the primer cup. This can get tedious after a while, but maybe it would be more comfortable for you.

[PatJones]

Uniforming primer pockets allows for better "feel" when seating primers. I have considered doing this myself, but I'm getting good ignition now. You can really feel when the primer touches the bottom of a uniformed pocket. I've used the Sinclair uniforming tool on rifle cartridges to good effect. Cut until you clean up the radius in the bottom corner of the pocket and stop. Don't continue cutting until the tool reaches maximum depth, this just moves you further away from the firing pin. The benefit is having a square corner to seat your primers against.

The K&M primer tool has adjustable leverage. If you screw the shell holder out a little bit it takes very little effort to seat the primers. I would probably start here before I uniformed my primer pockets.

[ZackJones]

Ron,

Google the Lee Ram Prime system. It goes on your single stage press and seats primers fully. It is what came with my press when I first started reloading. You don't have to squeeze a priming tool with this setup. Unfortunately, you have to place the primers individually into the primer cup. This can get tedious after a while, but maybe it would be more comfortable for you.

+1 for the Ram prime system. Something I learned last night, in fact, was after priming a case run the ram back up through the shell plate so that the primer cup is above the shell plate. This makes it very easy to put a new primer in the cup. In the past I had been lowering the ram and putting a primer in the pocket while it was under the shell plate. I load all of my ammo using a Lee single stage press. It's slow but I enjoy spending time out in the garage doing it.

[Matt Griffin]

I would strongly advise getting a few thousand of the same headstamp. It doesn't matter which, but I can feel a big difference when something else sneaks in. Then experiment with what works, for Winchester .008 is the sweet spot. Cleaning or reaming doesn't seem to be necessary after 30 or more loads on each.

[toothguy]

I would strongly advise getting a few thousand of the same headstamp. It doesn't matter which, but I can feel a big difference when something else sneaks in. Then experiment with what works, for Winchester .008 is the sweet spot. Cleaning or reaming doesn't seem to be necessary after 30 or more loads on each.

Nice to see you back.

[Tom E]

Uniforming primer pockets is nice idea and a waste of time. The C&S pin is really the only "extended" firing pin (.510 vs the nominal .495) and adds nothing to ignition vs an OEM S&W pin that measures .495 (there are several shorter versions S&W used) or an Apex pin. C&S pins always broke and/or wadded up the firing pin spring. They may be different now but we'd joke about a bandolier for spare C&S pins to get you thru a match. Just seat your primers .008 to .010 below flush. That gets you all you're gonna get. I run my guns with ~5.5 lb DA pulls. They will run reliably down in the low 4s with lighter rebound springs and the mainspring preload backed off but the 5.5 lb pull "feels" right and isn't so hugely different from my 617s. YMMV.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Tom E

[toothguy]

Uniforming primer pockets is nice idea and a waste of time. The C&S pin is really the only "extended" firing pin (.510 vs the nominal .495) and adds nothing to ignition vs an OEM S&W pin that measures .495 (there are several shorter versions S&W used) or an Apex pin. C&S pins always broke and/or wadded up the firing pin spring. They may be different now but we'd joke about a bandolier for spare C&S pins to get you thru a match. Just seat your primers .008 to .010 below flush. That gets you all you're gonna get. I run my guns with ~5.5 lb DA pulls. They will run reliably down in the low 4s with lighter rebound springs and the mainspring preload backed off but the 5.5 lb pull "feels" right and isn't so hugely different from my 617s. YMMV.

Tom, I load on a 650 with Starline brass when I fully seat the primers they are consistently .011 to .012. I found that is almost out of reach for the Apex pin (.495). Using the C&S (.510) pin I was able to drop about 1lb. off the trigger pull. The new C&S pins are made from a different steel, not sure if they will still cause the wadding of the firing pin spring like you mentioned or how long they will last.

[Tom E]

I load on a 650 with Starline brass when I fully seat the primers they are consistently .011 to .012.

Sounds like you're seating the primers so deep you're deforming the anvil. The idea is to seat to where the "feet" of the anvil just touch. I don't think this is a place where more is better.

[toothguy]

I load on a 650 with Starline brass when I fully seat the primers they are consistently .011 to .012.

Sounds like you're seating the primers so deep you're deforming the anvil. The idea is to seat to where the "feet" of the anvil just touch. I don't think this is a place where more is better.

Not trying to argue at all. The conversations with you about this helped me get a much better trigger pull. I think the .495 pin has a sweet spot from .008 to .010 and the .510 pin's sweet spot is from .008 to .014. When I fully seat the primers it does make the primer more flat so some deforming is occuring.

[RevolverJockey]

I load on a 650 with Starline brass when I fully seat the primers they are consistently .011 to .012.

Sounds like you're seating the primers so deep you're deforming the anvil. The idea is to seat to where the "feet" of the anvil just touch. I don't think this is a place where more is better.

I think a lot depends on brass selection too. In my .40 ammo, .007" below plus is crushed flat using Winchester brass.

Lee

[Tom E]

I think a lot depends on brass selection too. In my .40 ammo, .007" below plus is crushed flat using Winchester brass.

Lee

Very possible, but the pocket is a saami spec thing. I have noticed on WW brass primer pockets do seem to run on the minimum side of spec making them among the worst (most difficult) for seating primers. I save WW brass for lost brass matches.

[buckaroo45]

A quick progress update. I'm using only Starline Short Colt brass and Federal #100 sp primers and an electronic dial indicator for measurements. Primers measure .118 deep. Nominal primer pocket depth before uniforming is .119. Deprimed 6 cases, used Lee cleaning tool and seated 3 primers. All miked .08 below flush. Used the uniformer set @ .120, seated 3 primers and all 3 miked .010 below flush. It appears PatJones' statement of squaring walls has validity. .001 deeper via uniformer got me .002 deeper seating. This was done on a Lee single stage press w/ no mods to the seating punch. It's hard to feel much about seating resistance with my hands. I fancy it's a more positive end of stroke in the uniformed cases but that may just be mental to justify all this effort. Proof will be in how low trigger pull can go and still get 100% ignition.

I'll be working up an accuracy load w/ Berry's plated 158 RN and start w/ Clays as that's what I use in my 625 and I can run an entire match without any brushing cylinders, etc. Yes, I'm aware many like Titegroup but it burns snot out of my hands because I hold onto hot things too long. The smell of burning flesh used to be my warning sign. I'll continue to post results as they present.

Thanks to all for the insight(s).

Ron

[buckaroo45]

Well RATS! I installed the longer C&S firing pins in both guns and adjusted the strain screws for 100% ignition with the uniformed "deep" - .010 - seated primers. Best I got was 6.5 lb with Mikes trigger and still 7 lb w/ my trigger. Apparently that's the best my hands, equipment and procedures can muster and my hands can't tell the difference between the two guns. RATS! Polishing pieces and experimenting w/ rebound springs seems to be the logical evolution. This goal will require more time than I'm willing to invest. I have other things that need my attention so it is what it is. I'll have to rely on raw talent (BWA HA HA HA ) to carry the day. A good trigger job, C&S firing pins and Federal primers seated to .006 is prolly enough for the average bear. Only fanatics need pursue more. Thanks to all for your interest and suggestions.

Back home in Kentucky we still say Merry Christmas. I hope we all have one.

Thx,

Ron

[Akkid17]

Is it possible to over seat primers and cause ignition issues. I have a 327 with a garage action job and bobbed hammer, I'm getting a consistent 8.5 lb pull weight with the reduced power main spring and 15 lb rebound spring. So I was thinking it should be 100% with hand seated Feds but it actually looks like some of them are barely being dinged by the firing pin. I have loaded the brass 2 times first loading was pretty much 100% I may have had a couple of them not go off out of 500 but this time around I seated them as deep as my rcbs universal would go and they seem almost too deep and now I'm looking at less than 90% success, the only thing that changed was the depth of the primers I believe. 1st loading primer pockets were resistant to deep seating since it was brand new but second (third for some of them) loading they went in easy and it seems much deeper.

Is this a possible cause or am I in need of more investigating for the actual cause?

Starline brass

Fed primers

RCBS universal primer

Unknown moonclip brand (pretty loose on the brass, but that was expected)

Edited December 9, 2013 by Akkid17

[alecmc]

Is it possible to over seat primers and cause ignition issues. I have a 327 with a garage action job and bobbed hammer, I'm getting a consistent 8.5 lb pull weight with the reduced power main spring and 15 lb rebound spring. So I was thinking it should be 100% with hand seated Feds but it actually looks like some of them are barely being dinged by the firing pin. I have loaded the brass 2 times first loading was pretty much 100% I may have had a couple of them not go off out of 500 but this time around I seated them as deep as my rcbs universal would go and they seem almost too deep and now I'm looking at less than 90% success, the only thing that changed was the depth of the primers I believe. 1st loading primer pockets were resistant to deep seating since it was brand new but second (third for some of them) loading they went in easy and it seems much deeper.

Is this a possible cause or am I in need of more investigating for the actual cause?

Starline brass

Fed primers

RCBS universal primer

Unknown moonclip brand (pretty loose on the brass, but that was expected)

Absolutely Yes, it is possible to seat too deep, especially with small pistol primers.

The sweet spot for primer depth is .008-.010.

[thermobollocks]

I seat mine with the 550 and managed to break the knob