justaute Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) Preamble: The shooting scenario is not a USPSA match and I am not implying anything other than using the video as a visual-aid to complement my question. The subject question has nothing to do with the shooter's shooting ability. This post is solely focused on his strong-hand/arm position prior to drawing. Question: So, as an RO, would you begin the COF given the shooter's strong-hand/arm position? Assuming WSB of USPSA Rule #8.2.2 starting position. See 0:42 and 0:55 of the video. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/7ZeChW4VFOU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Edited September 20, 2013 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick88 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I see nothing wrong from this angle, so yes I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 What is the start position called for in the WSB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) Assuming USPSA # 8.2.2 (i.e. "...with arms hanging naturally by the sides."). Edited September 20, 2013 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Unless it is specified in the WSB, his arms don't look relaxed, at sides to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Interesting, I guess. I see nothing wrong from this angle, so yes I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 8.2.2 says hanging naturally, NOT relaxed. If they want to have them tensed up a bit in preparation to draw the gun I do not have a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I would be more concerned with making sure he holsters that gun before starting to turn around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) Therein lies the problem -- subjective interpretation. In the subject video, I see the shooter's arm/hand position much more than being tense. First, I stipulate that there should be some latitude for each shooter as we all have different physical-built. I have seen many shooters who severely bend their arm at the elbow and have their strong-hand very close to the grip. I would not interpret that as "hanging naturally", tense or not, at all. 8.2.2 says hanging naturally, NOT relaxed. If they want to have them tensed up a bit in preparation to draw the gun I do not have a problem with it. Edited September 20, 2013 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 A response to challenging the start position in the video might be that, although the shoulder may be slightly rotated to the rear, the arm is hanging naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) And I would not be surprised by that response. Hey, if a few of the elite USPSA shooters are doing it, then it'd be safe to assume that many other shooters would do so. Many shooters want to find ways, properly or not, to speed-up their draw by a tenth or two. A response to challenging the start position in the video might be that, although the shoulder may be slightly rotated to the rear, the arm is hanging naturally. Edited September 20, 2013 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hmm, wasn't there a thread awhile back about some of the ladies starting positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 with a gun on the side (legal position) and a bigger than normal 'handles'. i find that my arms naturally hanging is awkward that I have to somewhat modify my shoulder and rotate it counter clockwise that moves my arm rearward looking like the guy on OPs post. what gets me is the weakhand. Ive seen some shooters that their hand is hanging infront of their front pocket. I thought that is no longer on the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) It is not subjective and I would comment if I were the RO. It is clearly defined in the rule book. Significant part in bold. Your shooter in the video does not meet the E3 appendix image. 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 31 erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incor- rect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illus- trated in Appendix E3. Edited September 20, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I would be more concerned with making sure he holsters that gun before starting to turn around. +1 Scared me and it was a video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 It is not subjective and I would comment if I were the RO. It is clearly defined in the rule book. Significant part in bold. Your shooter in the video does not meet the E3 appendix image. I look to the RM at a major to decide if they are going to enforce that or not. I can think of 15+ big named shooters I could not start if that was enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) I understand I shoot at Rio with a lot of the big names on a weekly basis! I would say something to them if I thought they were creeping. What's fair is fair... Edited September 20, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 You're a good man. Though, I will add that I do believe in some subjective latitude, as mentioned earlier. People are built differently. That said, significant bent-arm or hand(s) in front of body just aren't cutting it to me. As you said, "what's fair is fair..." Obsequious behavior is not in my nature. I understand I shoot at Rio with a lot of the big names on a weekly basis! I would say something to them if I thought they were creeping. What's fair is fair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 True every body type is different and there does need to be a leaning to the subjective but the video you posted, to me at least, is quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Shooters wrist is basically at the butt of the gun, I've never seen this much of an exaggeration in over 10 years. Yes everyone has a different body type and that's understandable, but with the shoulder hitched up all goofy and the wrist so close to the butt of the gun I'm not starting someone like this. Sue me. I know it's subjective, I hate subjective, but I'm gonna draw the line on that start from anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I understand I shoot at Rio with a lot of the big names on a weekly basis! I would say something to them if I thought they were creeping. What's fair is fair... Creeping is movement, isn't it? Back on topic - I've seen a local shooter try to start that way. If I'm RO'ing him, I call him on it. Others let him slide. He never shoots outside of club matches, but I'm sure he'd get called on it pretty regularly if he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Bird Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Well, guess the answer is draw the line. Yu the man ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardan01 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 My answer to the posed query is, "no." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) I understand I shoot at Rio with a lot of the big names on a weekly basis! I would say something to them if I thought they were creeping. What's fair is fair... Creeping is movement, isn't it? If a fine point really needs to be made in the context of this discussion then sure it can imply movement. However, I used it in a much more generic way, If you are creeping up on the gun either as the static start position that does not meet the rules or is literally moving to the gun, to me , is creeping. I guess I should have said that if a shooter comes to the line on a stage that I am RO'ing and is in a position other than what the rules/stage description state I will call them on it. Edited September 20, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I wouldn't call that "naturally at sides" unless the shooter has some type of past injury that prevents any further relaxing of the shoulder/arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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