Classifier Updates

[PKT1106]

Match starts on the 11th and ends on the 14th and classifiers updated on the 12th, you use the latest classification for everyone when the first shot is fired. That is the most up to date, official info you have at the beginning of the match. No speculation, no "wait a day or two".

Why wouldn't I want to use the classifications from the database run on the 12th?

Its like taking a test and the teacher gives you a lecture about something new during the test. Should there be a question on the exam about info you learned during the exam? Of course not.

I just want to have the most up-to-date, official information at the times they are supposed to be published.

[beltjones]

Match starts on the 11th and ends on the 14th and classifiers updated on the 12th, you use the latest classification for everyone when the first shot is fired. That is the most up to date, official info you have at the beginning of the match. No speculation, no "wait a day or two".

Why wouldn't I want to use the classifications from the database run on the 12th? Since scores had to be into HQ on the 10th, aren't the new classifications really representative of the shooter's abilities? They're based on classifiers shot and received by HQ before the match started, and are clearly the most current, so they should be used.......

I can make an argument for any of the scenarios.....

Someone has to decide -- making the decision on the basis of workload is as valid an argument as any I've seen.....

You can make an argument, but that doesn't mean it's a good one.

If everyone is so concerned about updates happening mid match (which is a red herring in this case because Nationals falls toward the end of the month) then let's just do one update per year on January 1st.

Simply put, the classifier system updates are for every paying member of USPSA, only a fraction of which go to Nationals. Holding off on making an update due to Nationals is having the tail wag the dog.

Like Jake Martens said, this should be an automated process by now. We pay people at HQ to run these updates and do it manually, and it's grossly inefficient. The lack of automated updates - which would free up office staff to focus even more on things like Nationals, btw - is just institutional inertia. Again, it's sad that we just accept it and set the bar for them so low.

[JakeMartens]

Curious how many people on here would post the email/letter that they have sent to their AD, Exe Dir and Pres and what response that you have received back

(hint: the only way to get this changed is if the membership pushes it up and makes it an issue, and no I have not sent an email in myself...yet)

[beltjones]

Curious how many people on here would post the email/letter that they have sent to their AD, Exe Dir and Pres and what response that you have received back

(hint: the only way to get this changed is if the membership pushes it up and makes it an issue, and no I have not sent an email in myself...yet)

Another red herring. Not every change in operations has to come at the request of the membership.

In this case we pay an executive director who should be actively looking for ways to make the operation of the "business" more efficient. That's part of the job. Automating the classification update system is simply a change in operations - not rules - that doesn't need to go through the BOD.

[motosapiens]

My view is that giving awards based on 'class' finish is goofy and artificial anyway.

[wgnoyes]

Please note that USPSA is following its standard practice of not posting the September classification update until after the Open/Limited/Limited 10 Nationals are over. As was stated on the slot forms, USPSA is using the August classifications for these matches. To eliminate confusion as to what classes are current during the matches, USPSA does not post the September update until the matches are finished.

For what it's worth, I worked stats at the 2010 B2B Nationals in Vegas (October) , and we had the same situation then. There was no October update run before the match. But at one point I got curious and made a test copy of the match and ran the September update against it. THAT updated a lot of classifications, so they weren't even running the match with the most recent updates they had available. I hope it's better now.

[JakeMartens]

Curious how many people on here would post the email/letter that they have sent to their AD, Exe Dir and Pres and what response that you have received back

(hint: the only way to get this changed is if the membership pushes it up and makes it an issue, and no I have not sent an email in myself...yet)

Another red herring. Not every change in operations has to come at the request of the membership.

In this case we pay an executive director who should be actively looking for ways to make the operation of the "business" more efficient. That's part of the job. Automating the classification update system is simply a change in operations - not rules - that doesn't need to go through the BOD.

The reason for this manual issue is that clubs are still allowed to send classifiers scores in on paper, and payments by check and that has to be entered in manually and the payments entered in manually. There are also clubs that upload their results and then mail in payment and that has to be matched up manually and updated.

But at some point in order to move forward with the technology that is out there a decision needs to be made that "everything needs to be uploaded, payment and scores" ( I would say a red line drawn, but I do not want this to get any politics in this) and that is how clubs will have to do it.

It would not be too much to ask for this, and it doesn't mean that clubs have to go and get a credit card, you could do a payment by check online.

But until the membership makes a big enough deal about this practice and start getting the Exec Dir and BoD to discuss it nothing will change

[Flexmoney]

Why isnt the process automated?

I think, but am not sure, that there are still clubs that send in classifier scores on paper. If so, then those have to be manually punched in. Which would require man hours.

Used to be that the home office would run an update on a major match, right before it started, if requested to do so by the Match Director.

[wgnoyes]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

[beltjones]

Curious how many people on here would post the email/letter that they have sent to their AD, Exe Dir and Pres and what response that you have received back

(hint: the only way to get this changed is if the membership pushes it up and makes it an issue, and no I have not sent an email in myself...yet)

Another red herring. Not every change in operations has to come at the request of the membership.

In this case we pay an executive director who should be actively looking for ways to make the operation of the "business" more efficient. That's part of the job. Automating the classification update system is simply a change in operations - not rules - that doesn't need to go through the BOD.

The reason for this manual issue is that clubs are still allowed to send classifiers scores in on paper, and payments by check and that has to be entered in manually and the payments entered in manually. There are also clubs that upload their results and then mail in payment and that has to be matched up manually and updated.

But at some point in order to move forward with the technology that is out there a decision needs to be made that "everything needs to be uploaded, payment and scores" ( I would say a red line drawn, but I do not want this to get any politics in this) and that is how clubs will have to do it.

It would not be too much to ask for this, and it doesn't mean that clubs have to go and get a credit card, you could do a payment by check online.

But until the membership makes a big enough deal about this practice and start getting the Exec Dir and BoD to discuss it nothing will change

Sorry, but that's a poor reason to not want to change. You effectively hamstring the entire organization just because a handful of clubs still do things the old way. Again, it's the tail wagging the dog.

[beltjones]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

That doesn't really make sense. Wouldn't they have to do this regardless of when the most recent update was run?

[JakeMartens]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

was that dave or kim?

and why then is it not and issue for SS nationals?

Edited September 18, 2013 by JakeMartens

[wgnoyes]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

That doesn't really make sense. Wouldn't they have to do this regardless of when the most recent update was run?

No it doesn't make sense but that's what I was told. I guess I can see it where if you've been used to being B-class Ltd for a few months and leave for the Nationals and when you get there find you're suddenly A-class based on the update they just ran. i would get questions like that at registration at our Area 6 Championships when I ran the update the night before (or sometimes even the day of!) registration and check-in, but I didn't mind answering the questions and there really weren't all that many of them out of a typical 350 competitors.

[vluc]

Sent to Kim, Val, the Pres and my area director:

I respectfully ask, as a Section Coordinator, that you change this practice (copied below). You inconvenience thousands of USPSA shooters for a few hundred who shoot the Nationals. Classifications are important to those rank and file shooters who only do local matches, who gauge their progress by how they do monthly. And now, given the time lag between when classifications should have been updated and the beginning of the nationals, the policy/protocol makes little if any sense, and appears arbitrary and capricious.

Vince Lucchetti


September classification update

Please note that USPSA is following its standard practice of not posting the September classification update until after the Open/Limited/Limited 10 Nationals are over. As was stated on the slot forms, USPSA is using the August classifications for these matches. To eliminate confusion as to what classes are current during the matches, USPSA does not post the September update until the matches are finished.

[vluc]

My response from Phil:

Hi Vince,

Please submit your request to your Area Director.

Thank you for your input...the reasons for this practice are certainly not arbitrary and capricious, but your suggestions will be taken seriously.

Take care,

Phil Strader

Edited September 18, 2013 by vluc

[vluc]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

Uh, don't we pay them all to answer questions from members? Let's see.let me do that in my job as an administrator, tell patients who call to ask questions or make comments that I don't want to have to hear that from them.

BS, sorry, and I like Kim and the girls I deal with at Sedro from time to time, but they are there for us, not the other way around. We have, what, 20k members of USPSA? Several hundred shoot nats, a good number of them B2B so the actual number is lower. Say 400 to be nice. Of that 20K, lets be conservative and say we have 12,000 active shooters per year. 11,600 get put off to cater to that small percentage who go to nationals. And USPSA dares wonder why we can't get things done at local clubs? Show that much disdain for the bulk of the people who pay your salary? You've just let them know where they are in the pecking order.

[JakeMartens]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

Uh, don't we pay them all to answer questions from members? Let's see.let me do that in my job as an administrator, tell patients who call to ask questions or make comments that I don't want to have to hear that from them.

BS, sorry, and I like Kim and the girls I deal with at Sedro from time to time, but they are there for us, not the other way around. We have, what, 20k members of USPSA? Several hundred shoot nats, a good number of them B2B so the actual number is lower. Say 400 to be nice. Of that 20K, lets be conservative and say we have 12,000 active shooters per year. 11,600 get put off to cater to that small percentage who go to nationals. And USPSA dares wonder why we can't get things done at local clubs? Show that much disdain for the bulk of the people who pay your salary? You've just let them know where they are in the pecking order.

It is not catering to the people shooting the nationals it is about the antiquated way the organization does things and how they handle the paper classifiers and checks.

And that is what needs to be addressed

[BSeevers]

I sent a message to all involved and got no response. As I stated in my message the Nationals comes around the same time every year so you as a manager can plan for it. Saying it's Nationals time and we are busy is a kinda lame excuse. Would not fly in a corporation and frankly we pay salary to these people and expecting performance is not unreasonable. I'm not trying to incite but I think this is improper and shouldn't happen.

Oh and I stated that you are affecting results by not having people shoot their earned class and worst of all could make a Nationals shooter shoot U instead of a class they earned.

Edited September 18, 2013 by BSeevers

[BSeevers]

The Exec Dir has told me before they don't want to run a classification update just before the Nationals starts because they don't want to have to answer "but my classification is so-and-so" questions during competitor check-in at the match.

That doesn't really make sense. Wouldn't they have to do this regardless of when the most recent update was run?

No it doesn't make sense but that's what I was told. I guess I can see it where if you've been used to being B-class Ltd for a few months and leave for the Nationals and when you get there find you're suddenly A-class based on the update they just ran. i would get questions like that at registration at our Area 6 Championships when I ran the update the night before (or sometimes even the day of!) registration and check-in, but I didn't mind answering the questions and there really weren't all that many of them out of a typical 350 competitors.

I agree it would probably be just 10-20 people. maybe.

I think all big matches use the latest update as far as I have seen

[DrLove]

Just found out about this and don't mind saying that I'm pissed. I've been within half of a percent of making master for 5 months and finally have the classifier scores to make it with this update. Now they aren't doing an update.

likewise. ... except B class !

Haha, likewise except my first classification in open, C:)

[CMV]

Does anyone know for CERTAIN that the update when it posts will not include matches shot after the normal update timeframe. Meaning if one shoots a match this weekend will it be included in the update run or not?

[JWGlock26]

I called HQ the other day and the second person that I talked to actually put me on hold for about 5 minutes to verify that. She came back and said they would still be using the sept. 10th cut off day for classifiers submitted. She believed that if you actually shot the nationals then your percentage there may be used but no classifiers submitted after the 10th.

[dirty whiteboy]

So does anyone know when the next update will occur? Will it be the middle of October or right after the nationals?

[38SuperDub]

Did you read the thread?

9th post on page 1:

"Just talked to USPSA (talked I mean chatted) - they are running one after B2B"

[dirty whiteboy]

Did you read the thread?

9th post on page 1:

"Just talked to USPSA (talked I mean chatted) - they are running one after B2B"

Yes, I read that. The week after the B2B will begin the first week of October. So my question is will they wait till the usual Oct update or do it right after the Natls and then again in October?