Heavy Metal Anyone?

[Brian Payne]

I like the HM catagory. I have not shot much competition but this catagory appealed to me because of the calibers involved.

Rules:

Pump shotgun with 22" barrel max. Each shoot could govern how many rounds could be loaded in the magazine at the start of the course of fire. If you had a five round mag. or an eight round mag. should make no difference once the course of fire is started. Reoloading on the run only leaves time for a certain amount of reloading anyway. Would it be quicker to slow down and load all eight rounds, then continue, or load five and top off as you keep running?

Handgun would be .45 acp or .45 gap. Hi-caps allowed but each shoot would govern how many rounds could be loaded in each mag. Some may want 10 round mags., some may want eight round mags. You might even want all mags. loaded to only six rounds to put revolvers on an even playing field. He Men should be able to adapt to any enviornment right?

Rifle would be iron sighted .308 or. Magazine capacity would be 20 round maximum. Higher capacity magazine would just have to download to 20 rounds.

Power factor for the weapons would be a non issue if the shoots could supply the proper amount of factory ammunition for each shooters weapon. The fees could be tacked onto the entry fee. Might give some of the ammunition companies a way of getting some of their ammunition into the publics hands in a competition style enviornment.

Just some ideas from an LEO that has had too many shifts straight, too much coffee, and just got done with that damn Taser training.

[davidwiz]

To compete in Heavy Metal/HeMan, I already have to get another rifle, at least allow me to use my already Major-making 12ga auto shotgun. I really don't see why some matches require the use of a pump shotgun. The whole point of Heavy Metal/HeMan (from what I've been told and read) was to create a Division where a Major-making Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun must be used.

[George]

Superstition allows for both pump and auto. If the division gains real popularity (like it should), no reason not to have both.

--

Regards,

[jm951]

While there seems to be some concern over using 8rd mags, there are 10rd mags out there for the great old standard 1911. With that in mind, I'd about say that 10rds would be the ticket on the handgun mag capacity. As for caliber, I like the idea of using a production gun that has to make major, with the minimum being 44 or 10mm (major pf).

I've come back into competitive shooting just because of the 3gun matches and with my stuff, He Man/Heavy Metal is the way to go without having to drop lots of coin on new toys, as if that would be a bad thing, but my finance minister would disapprove. But I digress, I started shooting 3g using a SA1911 with 10rd mags, 7.62 NATO FN FAL L1A1 with 20rd mags, and a Mossy 500. Thrown in with all the mousegunners and STI and Benellis, I stand a snowball's chance in a stove of winning, let's face it, technology can make a mediocre shooter much more competitive. What I am looking for is to have a good time and shoot what I have well. If I beat some of those guys, then great, that's just gravy.

Cheap ammo, relatively low cost guns and a challenging course of fire makes for great fun. I like the idea of no optics for this class, but I can also see the point for those of us who are becoming visually challenged using some form of optics. In that light, why not limit optics to no more than 2x? The downside here is that works against the spirit of the class to run classic battle implements. Someone mentioned doing battle with optics on a rifle, but there is a reason that even with optics, the military still teaches irons and irons are still on most standard issue military guns. Dive into a foxhole or behind hard cover and have your rifle land underneath between you and some rocks or concrete and crunch the optics. In a firefight, it could well happen and you don't want to be without some means of returning aimed fire. But being an older guy with eyes getting weaker, I can understand why some want an option.

On shotguns, I can run fairly close to most autos as long as the COF is 6rd friendly in layout negating some of the advantage for those with mag extensions. I like my Mossy, but will definately change to either an 870 a 590 platform to equalize that capacity discrepancy.

I don't like the idea of a match supplying the ammo. Just have one KB or malfunction and see where the liability falls.

As I see it, I would like to see HM with-

Rifle- 308 or larger- major pf 20rd mags

Pistol- 44 or larger- major pf 10rd mags

Shotgun- 12ga pump only

No compensators

No speedloaders

No optics

Iron sights only, ghost rings ok on shotguns

Pretty close to the original idea and that's what attracted me to the class in the first place.

[davidwiz]

Superstition allows for both pump and auto. If the division gains real popularity (like it should), no reason not to have both.

I saw that when I was there. If I can get a .308 put together in time, I'm shooting Heavy Metal at the SMM3G next year using my Beven-ized M1S90.

[MP5_guy]

Superstition allows for both pump and auto. If the division gains real popularity (like it should), no reason not to have both.

I agree with this -- pattern the shotgun requirements from the Tactical Division and allow both pumps and autos. The reality is that shotgunning as we shoot it is more of a reloading exercise than anything else. Why require that I buy yet another shotgun? Besides, I hate pumps. I'd rather put that money towards ammo or another firearm that I'll get more use out of.

I think it's already going to be a challenge to get people to drag out their .30 cal rifles and make them squint through the iron sights. No point in making it less appealing. The need for a pump is what has kept me from playing in HM.

[ArnisAndyz]

I'm totally new to the sport but I like the idea of only allowing pump shotguns in He-Man. I think of this catagory as "place" where 308 and other large caliber shooters can play on a level playing ground and not have to go up against the faster, lighter recoiling 223 guns (I own a PTR308 that I hope to be shooting in 3 gun next month). I think its a place where people that have a pump can can compete on a level playing ground with other pump guns. As a general rule, pumps do recoil more than semiautos, might that be where the He-man comes from? Also, entry level pumps are more cheaper so more people can try the sport with less investment.

Don't really agree on 30 caliber or greater since an M1 Carbine would be allowed. He-Man will then become an M1 event since the gamers will choose it for its low recoil. There needs to be a Major power floor for rifle and pistol.

[norbs007]

Is there a barrel lenght restriction for the pump shotgun? I'm thinking of using a Benelli Nova with a 28" barrel. Need to find a mag extension for it though. I was thinking of getting an 870 but after reading the British Open match in Front Sight, I could play with my Nova.

[Neil Beverley]

Is there a barrel lenght restriction for the pump shotgun?  I'm thinking of using a Benelli Nova with a 28" barrel.  Need to find a mag extension for it though.  I was thinking of getting an 870 but after reading the British Open match in Front Sight, I could play with my Nova.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's quite an interesting article about modifying the Nova HERE

[norbs007]

Is there a barrel lenght restriction for the pump shotgun?  I'm thinking of using a Benelli Nova with a 28" barrel.  Need to find a mag extension for it though.  I was thinking of getting an 870 but after reading the British Open match in Front Sight, I could play with my Nova.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's quite an interesting article about modifying the Nova HERE

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is a very interesting thread Neil, THANK YOU! Got to talk to KurtM about the modifications. The 28" barrel might be too long to whip around, might need to have it cut and re-threaded for chokes. What's a good lenght 22? GrimReaper sent me this link Carlson's Choke Tubes that can do the job. Glad to know that there's a lot of Nova shooters in our game and that I can go play without buying another pump . The Surecycle mag tube is pricey, but I'm glad it's available.

Edited September 30, 2005 by norbs007

[Overkill]

What the matter of solving the handgun problem by going with a higher power factor....say 210. He-Manly calibers like the 45, 10, 44, 357 mag, etc can all get there easily, but it would preclude the 9by's and 40 smith. A higher PF and a 10 shot capacity limit should be all you need to set this division apart from the others.

The SG's should be pump only. The gas guns are too soft shooting and too easy to shoot from ackward positions. I suppose you COULD mandate 3 inch shells in HM, with a pump if you really wanted to create a distinction.

On the rifle optic issue why not just say...no magnification in the sighting system. That way if you're old you can run a EO or Aimpoint but you're not gaining the same advantage you'd get with magnafication.

[Boulderado]

I think Dan Furbee and the folks at Rio Solado GC are on the right track with Heavy Metal. Last year they allowed folks to use an auto SG or Pump SG and scored them seperetly.

There are folks who would like to shoot HM but they need to use a scope so we should have a scoped category within HM ... probably push the iron sight folks out of existence though.

Power factors need to be within reason and they need to be compatible form match to match else we'll hav to have a different set of loads for every match. The USPSA is the ONLY sanctioning body that currently actually Chrongraphs 3 Gun Competitors. So my suggestion is to use USPSA MAJOR power factors for Heavy Metal: Pistol 165, Rifle 320, SG who really cares? ummm 480.

[Boulderado]

I think Dan Furbee and the folks at Rio Solado GC are on the right track with Heavy Metal. Last year they allowed folks to use an auto SG or Pump SG and scored them seperetly.

There are folks who would like to shoot HM but they need to use a scope so we should have a scoped category within HM ... probably push the iron sight folks out of existence though.

Power factors need to be within reason and they need to be compatible form match to match else we'll hav to have a different set of loads for every match. The USPSA is the ONLY sanctioning body that currently actually Chrongraphs 3 Gun Competitors. So my suggestion is to use USPSA MAJOR power factors for Heavy Metal: Pistol 165, Rifle 320, SG who really cares? ummm 520.

Gauging Shotgun Power factors strikes me as reduntant. Shot shells either bust clays and knock down steel at range or they don't. Slugs accurately reach their targets at 40-50 yards or not. There maybe shooters out there who can selectively load Winchester Feather Lights to bust clays and then load full power number 6 shot loads to knock down steel, but I sure don't know a one of them ... not even Kurt M. does that. ooops hope I did not give him any ideas ...

Have Fun !!!

[Airedale]

I believe HM should be well defined.

If it's little more than tactical or limited with a .308 then let's not fool with it.

Define the pistol- .44/.45 whatever-define it. Major PF isn't enough definition.

Rifle is pretty easy IMO-major PF, 20 rds.

Shotgun-12 ga pump.

JMHO,

Dave

[Ty Gentry]

What about two heavy metal classes if there is enough in each class.

Heavy Metal Big Pistol

Auto 12 ga

Big Scoped rifle

Heavy Metal HE-MAN

Big pistor 10 round max

Pump SG

Big rifle

No optics anywhere

No comps anywhere

Just a thought. I will still stay wimpy.

[ArnisAndyz]

Problem that I'm finding is at the local level, the rules are bent. For example, my club allows 40SW major and semiauto SG for HeMan but another club the hosts Heman just 50 miles away is 44 or above only and PUMP only. So...if I get geared up to get the best advantage at my local club, I might/might not be legal to shoot in another clubs HeMan. For this reason I chose to use a PUMP, a single stack 1911 and a 308 with no optics. Might have to shoot against people with an advantage in gear...but I should be able to shoot HeMan anywhere.

[hoodhazard]

So it seems the question is besides the scoreing discrepancies,Is HM for just the physically

intact or for the general shooting community and how much is allowable by the powers that be.If you choose HM I think you need to be intact or just endure the disadvantages you incur.

[3gunr]

I think it should be simple. A .308 or larger caliber rifle limited to 20 rounds. A single stack pistol shooting a power factor of 165 limited to 10 rounds. And a pump 12 guage limited to 8 rounds in the tube, and no barrell length restriction. How can the barrell lenght effect anything? No ports and no optics on anything. These rules should cover the majority of people's equipment. A FAL guy can just load 20 rounds, the 10mm or .40 caliber guy will be included if its a single stack, and anyone should be able to beg,borrow, or steal a pump 12 guage....may have to spring for a tube, but with no barrel length restriction grandads duck gun could get a workout. No need to muddy the water with any sub-categories as in optics or auto shotguns. I love to shoot my M1A, and did until matches started going to open or tactical........with no division for iron sightd rifles. Even there I shoot a single stack .45, just as I do in IPSC/USPSA Limited 10. Have even went to the dark side and started shooting a Benelli, since a pump is at a disadvantage to an auto. And im already behind the 8-ball with a single stack pistol, so why be further behind with a pump. I really dislike the whole AR platform, and despise the fact that technology is leaving me NO place to compete with an iron sighted battle rifle, unless you count High Power shooting. The last High Power match I went to I saw several young guys there, who would have had a certified BLAST at a 3-gun match. But to gear up they would have to buy optics. And a cheapo holosight wont cut it against a high dollar variable optic from Trijicon or the like. Sorry for the RANT, but would LOVE to see a Heavy Metal, Mountain Man....He Man or whatever you want to call the class be standardized to make it easy on everyone.

CAA

[dcloudy777]

Reading 3gunrs last post got me thinking... if the HM thing could be standardized, it could really be a great "entry-level" division. A resourceful person could get everything you'd need to be competitive (except talent, which doesn't stop me from playing) for about the price of one of the guns you'd need for open. Clones and rebuilds of FALs, CETMES, G3s are abound right now, and cheap, as well as the magazines that feed them. It's pretty tough to spend mre than about 300 bucks on a pump shotgun (unless you're a Wilson Combat fanatic, in which case you probably shoot IDPA anyway and think we're a bunch of gamer terrorists LOL) and I would think just about anyone remotely interested in the game would have a suitable pistol. This could welcome newcomers to the game, not only without the condescending connotations of a "production class" but with the panache of a being "Heavy Metal" or "He-Man". Here's my mandatory suggestion for standardized rules.

Pistol... Capacity rules set like new Single Stack class... 8 major, 10 minor, but with Minor at 165 and major around 180-185. I think this would allow 8-shot revos to play, and the minor "clause" would allow a newbie to shoot with just about any .40 service pistol, but scoring minor. Minor modifications allowed, sights, trigger work, possibly magwells on single stack guns only.

Shotgun: 12 gauge manually operated (I'd love to trick out an Winchester 1887 for 3-gun ). Minor mods only: sights, internals, ammo stroage.

Rifle: .30 caliber, Major PF only. 20 rds max.

No comps, porting, or optics allowed on any gun.

[Boulderado]

Heavy Metal ain't broke ... that is, it does not need fixing. The most common rules are 7.62 X 51 (.308 Win)cartridge or bigger and 20 rounds in Mags max, Pistol .44 cal or bigger, 10 rounds max in mags, shotgun 12ga, 8 round magazine max and a 22 inch barrel length limit. USPSA requires Major Power Factor for all HM ammo, I.E. 320 for rifle, 165 Pistol and a who cares 500 something for shotgun (if your loads don't knock down the steel or reach the target ...who cares but you).

Changing power factors for He Man/Heavy Metal will not help to "standardize" Heavy Metal, it will only force shooters to create yet another "custom" load. Furthrmore, the ony 3 Gun match I've ever been to thata chronoed ammo was a USPSA match ... no one else seems to care ...

If we really want to change something about HM we should change things that will PROMOTE PATICIPATION!!! One thing I can think of that would most likely promote an instant increase in PARTICIPATION is splitting HM into two categories. By allowing Scoped rifles in one category and Iron Sights only in the other. there are just too many good shooters out there, both yuong and old who are either "iron sight disadvantaged" or awfully good actors ... :-) I prefer Iron sights myself.

Another thing that would increase participation would be for the USPSA to make HM a full Division and put it on their match applications. Right now its just a category of the Limited/Standard Division, and you cannot enter more thatn one category in a USPSA match. Hence at a USPSA 3 gun match you can enter HM , but you can't also be a Junior, Senior, Super Senior or Woman because those are categories.

SMM3Gun has increased participation in HM by allowing pumps and auto shotguns in separate scoring categories up till now. However, that might change for 2006 as the rules for that match are being"reviewed."

As the Armed forces start the move back to the .45ACP and is already issuing re-furbed M14's HM has to gain importance in our 3 Gun Games ..

If you are really interested in a competitive 1887 Win lever action Shotgun go to Coyote Cap's web site http://www.coyotecap.com/ . He is importing and reworking 1887 clones into competitive shotguns. I have an original Winchester and they are fun to shoot. But, unless you are an exceptional person who has become a maniac practicing with an '87 you'll never be able to beat a good shooter with a pump gun. But, that may not be your goal .. :-)

[dcloudy777]

Man, can't you see I'm just trying to get my 10mm into HM? I mean, this is purely self-serving here. I mean, C'mon 165 PF? What's He-Man about that?

And I know I could never be competitve with the scatter-lever... or anything else for that matter. I just think one of Coyote Cap's replicas all all done up in black synthetic with spare rounds festooned all over it would be pretty cool... and maybe a flashlight...

DanO