Heavy Metal Anyone?

[wide45]

While I may like the idea of shooting a Garand in a match, I shudder to think how long an average shooter would take to go through a real course of fire, particularly with 200 yard plus shots. Matches would take forever. Springfields or Enfields?? A 90 second coourse of fire would be 3-5 minutes.

So?

The long range stuff would run fine. The 45 rnd. hoser stages are the ones that would really suck, as if they don't now.

[Helmut]

I remember RO'ing a guy last year (2003) at the RM3G that shot a Garand in He-man.......Lets put it this way....he knew how to load fast and did well with his times.....But keep in mind of the scoring (1 A hit or 2 anywhere).....he was tagging alot of single "A" hits....

Garret

[P.E. Kelley]

Gentlemen, this division is NOT designed to be an entry-level division. Nor should we strive to cater to the lowest common denominator. The guns and gear represent a segment of practical defensive major caliber cruiser ready gear and mindset. No, not head shot only "Zombie" stuff but major caliber practical platforms that are (if you will) a throw back to the "V" in DVC that is missed by the practitioner of this division.

Up until this year I have been shooting 3 gun with standard Limited class gear; Rack grade AR sans comp, box stock SX2 and a G35 as factory built and greatly enjoy our sport. This division is a departure that appeals to a select few diehards that are not looking for the cutting edge in "competition only" guns and gear. Let the dialog follow the premise that that Eddie Rhoads, Blane West, Kelly Neal and Kurt Miller and I have set forth. The object is to come to a standard for all 3 gun matches to try to follow so those inclined can assemble appropriate equipment.

PK

[AH6IP]

OK, but does it have to be a single stack .45? What about Glocks?

[Eddie Rhodes]

When I started shooting PRACTICAL matches everyone who was influential pronounced that the goal of the activity was to find the equipment and techniques best suited to an armed encounter. A match at PSAC had STANDARDS, a SPEED COURSE, and an ASSAULT COURSE. No one, I mean no one who was respected hedged on the power of the cartridges used in a match. Why? Because the pistol and ammo you just shot the match with were the ones you trusted for defense of your family and yourself.

WOW! Things have changed on several levels. I don't think they will ever go back. I am not trying to re-orient everyone who shoots practical 3gun toward that attitude. However, our activity has the capacity to include shooters who want to use "real world gear" without disrupting the OPEN or TACTICAL Divisions. Hence, He-Man. A division that requires the use of full power, large caliber firearms most likely to be used by police, military, or individuals drawn to the most effective defensive firearms.

[rhino]

. . . in which case, it seems like self-loading 12ga shotguns are entirely appropriate.

[benny hill]

If I cannot shoot a scope on my 308, then you guy's are just a bunch of " girly men" or maybe I'm just a wuss or whatever.

[Carlos]

Shot in the "He-Man" or heavy metal division last Sunday in Thurmont, MD w/ a borrowed Springfield M1-A; 870 w/ mag extension, and a CZ-97B-SA in .45 (and bowling pin loads to boot). I doubt I did very well but it was a lot of fun. Here is a link to the complete after action report over on Phil's forum:

http://shootersparadise.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187

Regards, D.

[cking]

The problem is that the 308 class with the existing scoring system is not competitive with the 223 in most stages because speed predominates. Now if most of shots were 100 yards plus then the difference fades.

Maybe if we gave A major 6 points instead of 5 but Ez Score won't allow this.

So what we are really talking about is who can handle recoil. Fat/Big/large/strong men may have the advantage then.

I don't think saying single stack is a good Idea either what about Para 45's.

What we really need is a power factor for each gun to make he-man/heavy metal.

So sort of a comprimise is 308 or greater, 12 gauge no comps no speedloaders, 45 loaded to major.

So now the question is to do we have open, tactical, limited heavyMetal classes? What about a limited 40 where does it fall?

What I really think we need it the ability to change the score weighings inside of EZ score. Then we could play around with different values and see what it takes to even things out. You know a beta test.

[Carlos]

"So what we are really talking about is who can handle recoil. Fat/Big/large/strong men may have the advantage then. "

I disagree. The problem is that most rifle shooters are not properly trained in recoil management during rapid fire. Technique can overcome recoil. Here is an example: I have a friend who owns a .308 caliber full-auto since he is a class III dealer. The rifle is a dealer sample FAL or more correctly, a select fire L1-A1. Although he about average size (maybe a bit on the tall side) he is easily able to empty the entire 20 round magazine in one long burst (& he could do it w/ a 30 rounder just as easily) while keeping every single round within the A-zone.

The select fire L1-A1 as well as the M-14 were abandoned by their respective militaries because the "average trooper" (with incorrect training) could not control them, but with the right training, anyone can learn to shoot such rifles nearly as fast as .223s without regard to body mass. Yes, I also know about "less weight= more ammo" issue; 5.56 wins that in real combat.

However, I maintain that quickly firing a .308 is all about technique, not body mass. ALthough a move to the 5.56mm and 5.45mm rounds makes a rifle more tolerant of poor technique/less training, shouldn't USPSA emphasize training & practice? Ask some of the smaller statured USPSA shooters if they are prevented from winning with a .45 ACP by their lack of body mass & see what the response is.

"I don't think saying single stack is a good Idea either what about Para 45's"

Agreed. The club I shot with followed a different rule. I used a CZ-97B-SA which is a single action .45 ACP made by CZ with factory double stack 10 round magazines. We also allow .44 Magnum and full power 10 MM in He Man. Maybe the rule should be a suitable power factor for .45 ACP and Single action only? My mind is not made up on this one - other than to exclude my usual .40 Limited SV.

[Religious Shooter]

"So what we are really talking about is who can handle recoil. Fat/Big/large/strong men may have the advantage then. "

I disagree. The problem is that most rifle shooters are not properly trained in recoil management during rapid fire. Technique can overcome recoil.

OK, where can I read about such training?

Is it the push-pull technique that Cooley/Haught teach?

[cking]

Actually I was kind of jesting about big/fat/strong guys. We don't get an advantage very often.

But for the average good shooter, considering different shooting positions it is slower to recover with a 308. It also depends on how big of a MOA we are trying to keep the gun shooting in.

What I guess we should be asking is who are we trying to attract to our sport with the Heavy metal class?

Is it a shooter who would not normal go to ipsc match because of all the specialized equipment? So if we are after what your typical hunter may have in his closet. 12 gauge pump or auto 5 shot, a bolt or semi-auto rifle in 308 or larger with mag capacity of 5 or less, some sort of pistol, which may be old slab side 45 or something fancier like a sig or HP.

So if we create a class for this group will they become a regular shooter?

Or are we trying to equalize things so a major rifle and pistol are competitive against the small caliber go fast weapons that have developed due to the current scoring system weighting.

Actually I think they are two different groups, so should we have the hunter class, 5 shot 12/10 gauge with no optics or comps, rifle with no comps 5 shot capacity, pistol 45 acp.

Heavy metal, which is just 308 or larger, 12/10 gauge, 45ACP then have the standard limited, tactical and open classes.

We are getting ready to start a new 3gun monthly match and right now I'm leaning to having heavy-metal and hunter classes. Run them for awhile and keep polling the shooters to see if they like it.

To me the object is to get more people out shooting!

Thanks for reading

[rhino]

Yeah, I learned recently while shooting nukemech's AR10 that I can shoot .308 about the same way I shoot .223 if I bother to look at the sights on every shot.

Size does matter. If I had a .308 battle rifle, I'd be shooting it in 3-gun.

[Airedale]

Thanks to Mr. Kelley's Front Sight article, I got the heavy metal bug.

The new DPMS 18" .308 will arrive today. My neighbor and shooting buddy has built the shotgun on a Benelli Nova so we will share long guns for HM shoots.

Hoppy's Mississippi shoot looks like fun.

While I agree that, in the right hands, a pump can run close to an auto, I believe it should be restricted to 12 pumps to keep in the spirit of the game.

Dave

[P.E. Kelley]

Airedale,

Welcome to Heavy Metal! I am well pleased that my article sparked your interest. My 18" DPMS has been on order for a few weeks. Curious to see how it fairs in comparison to my beloved 18" M1A. Did you have yours fitted with a compensator?

If I can be of any help please let me know.

PK

[Airedale]

PK,

It's setting out in the truck waiting to go home.

I've got blueprints to work on and I'd rather be shooting.

I'm the second owner although it looks new. It came with a Vltor stock, RRA 2 stage match trigger (and the original trigger), and some other odds and ends. I will put a red dot on it today so I can shoot it in the pasture prior to dark.

I'd prefer iron sights but they are nearly as expensive as a decent dot. I wouldn't mind a low power scope (~1.5) but don't want to spend a bunch of bucks. I'll figure the optics out with time.

Mine isn't compensated-it's the 18" bull barrel.

I can't wait to shoot it.

Thanks,

Dave

Edited to add: I shot it last night out of the neighbors big shop door. It was pouring rain. I mounted a red dot to it and we were shooting at a rock across the pond at ~80 yards. The DPMS rocks! Great fun!

[scottzerger]

Mr Kelly

Your article on heavy metal has definitely sparked my interest . Now i

have just one question. The rm3g and smm3g matches (HM) limit your 45 to

10 shots. Does that mean glocks and para ords are the primary weapons? Shooting a single stack of 8 equals alot of reloads. Or have i read this wrong?

Thxs Scottz

[George]

It’s not make of pistol, just minimum caliber and maximum number of rounds that make a pistol useable in HM.

IIRC, anything .45 caliber and 10 round capacity or under is pretty much OK, even revolvers where I believe .44 is allowable (anyone know about .357 full power in revo for HM ?).

--

Regards,

[EricW]

Rifle: Single optic or Iron sight.

Minimum caliber .308. Minimum

340-power factor. Magazine capacity

limited to 20 rounds.

Equipped with sling. Compensators

limited to 1” wide by 3”

long.

Pistol: Iron sights only. Minimum

180-power factor. Maximum barrel

length 5.5”. No compensator.

Secure holster suitable for duty use

and/or daily wear. To be worn on

every stage during match.  Magazine

capacity limited to 8 rounds.

Shotgun: Pump Only. Iron sights

only. Minimum 12 gauge. 520-

power factor for shot and slugs.

No compensators, porting, etc.

Magazine capacity limited to 8

rounds. Equipped with sling. No

box magazines or speed loaders,

etc.

So it is written by the wise Dr. Kelley. And so it should be.

[George]

I agree that’s how it ought to be, but it varies from match to match at the moment and I believe 10 round max, .45 Min is what RM3G wants to see (presently anyway).

--

Regards,

[scottzerger]

Hey George

I understand that its not the guns but if i am using a single stack 45 will i still

be competitive ? Also are the stages 8 or 10 rounds per?

Thanks Just trying to figure out what handgun to buy

Scottz

[George]

Hi Scottz,

You are only worrying about the others in HM and even if some guys have 1-2 more rounds, that is not a real big advantage. The courses at RM3G are not like the bay oriented, shoot 9 from this position and 6 from there mode you see at other matches. They are field courses with lotsa movement in variable natural terrain which breaks up the shooting quite a bit (you can spend as much time searching as shooting). You will be shooting up to 30+ in some stages so you will need lotsa mags, but I don't see it making a big difference there.

At SMMG, it might be a small disadvantage at some point in hoser stuff, but stage design is different every year and once again, if a 1-2 round difference in capacity makes a real difference, then a little more practice will make even more difference

--

Regards,

[TAC3GUN]

I just shot my first He-Man match last weekat Hernando County with Mick. Been shooting IPSC for ten years in limited. I prefer the eight round limit in pistol and the same in pump shotgun. At 58, I'd like the optics idea for the rifle, like my Tactical AR, but feel the class would be better served with iron sights. I can't afford the new Leupold stuff. Recoil management? I feared the rifle at first but now know that practice will make a difference. Oh yeah, keep the rifle ammo to NATO specs.

[EricW]

I disagree about the 10 round versus 8 not being an advantage. When all I have to do is "neutralize" a target, the extra ammo is substantial advantage especially if I can call my shots and shoot make ups on non-A hits. The "neutralize" rule changes how you shoot stages, or at least it should anyway (in my addled mind).

[Religious Shooter]

Has there been any talk on the finalization of Heavy-Metal's equipment rules from the USPSA board?