Heavy Metal Anyone?

[P.E. Kelley]

OK competitors, I am sure you have all read your Front Sight magazine cover to cover, right? My question is who of you are thinking about shooting “Heavy Metal”? If so what guns? Which matches? I would like to have some idea who, what and where so I can digitally capture and wax poetic about your overcoming the difficulties inherent to the division in print.

Thank you

PK

[Mickster]

We have been putting on He-man/Heavy Metal 3-gun matches at the Hernando Sportsmans Club (Florida) on the 5th sunday all this past year. It's always a great time and a lot of fun!

The rules we use are similar, but not the same, as Superstition & Rocky Mountain. Rifle must be full power .308 or 30-06, iron sights only. Pistol must be limited or production style .45 with 10 rounds max. Shotgun must be a pump 12.

Target scoring is an "A" hit or 6 points on IPSC style targets.

Equipment wise you'll see all the usual stuff. Mostly single stack .45's, Mossbergs and 870's, and a mix of FAL's, M1A's, Garands and AR-10's in that order.

To answer your question, some of us are thinking about shooting He-man/Heavy Metal next year at Superstition and Rocky Mountain. But the jury is still out on that one.

The biggest consideration is trying to shoot at little steel plates at 300+ yards. It's hard enough with a 3x optic on an AR so shooting fuzzy iron sights at invisible 10" plates 330 yards away can be next to impossible.

On the other hand, we use brightly painted orange 12" plates from 125 to 200 yards and that seems to work pretty well. At least the orange targets don't blend in with the berms.

[rhino]

I'd love to do it, and I will when I ever get a battle rifle in .308 of some kind. I have too many other things that I need first, though.

Heavy metal is good in that it's more "accessible" for pistol and shotgun than other categories/division, but it's the opposite for the rifle. I think a lot more people have access to a .223 or pistol caliber rifle than do a .308.

I think dealing with the shooting challenges (such as plates that blend with the background) is an important part of being a "He-man!"

[EricW]

For those who either do not receive or do not read Front Sight, here is: Pat Kelley's Most Excellent Article (in PDF)

[P.E. Kelley]

Thanks EricW!

Your feedback is welcomed BE users.

PK

[kimel]

I'd be very tempted to play HM but not without an optic on the rifle. If putting an optic on the rifle boots me to tactical class where I have to play with the .223 crowd then I will be shooting my AR, 1100 and Limited pistol.

It occurs to me that the crowd that is most interested in HM is probably the same crowd that is learning to deal with wearing glasses/contacts or thinking Lasix is a good idea as their eyes age. Not everyone has Pat's eyes.

Put a limit of 4x on if you want to, but aging eyes need optics. Sad, but true.

Tactical seems to be the fastest growing class in 3G these days and I have to think that a lot of this is due to the addition of an optic on the rifle. Some people don't want to play in Open but they need the optic for those shots out past 200 yards.

Yes, I know Pat's article mentions Irons or Optics but the trend seems to be that HM is Irons Only. Does this mean we need to have HM Iron and HM Glass classes?

[EricW]

I'll do it. I'll be shooting a 4506, a Browning BPS, and an 03A3 (with a gamer peep sight). Can I use stripper clips, or is that unmanly gaming?

[P.E. Kelley]

Part of the reason I penned the piece was to generate some dialog and hopefully reach a consensus on what constitutes "Heavy Metal" between the Major 3 gun matches. Heck, so far we can't even use one name for the class! It would be nice if USPSA adopted this division and standardized the equipment guidelines. Then maybe the rest of the "players" would follow suit. Iron or Optic matters little to me at this point.

PK

[kimel]

In the reality of the game we are playing I really wonder whether, given a balanced match, iron vs optic isn't really a wash. Irons will undoubtedly be faster at close range and slower at distance whereas optics are rather the reverse of this. Dots kind of fall in the middle ground...at least they do for me.

Notice I said "given a balanced match". If the match is nothing but a psycho-hosefest with no targets beyond 50 yards then irons/dots are gonna kick butt. If the match is nothing but a long distance "sniper" match then the optics with magnification are going to kick butt. Start tossing in a pile of recoil/muzzle rise and all that fun stuff and then you really have to start wondering...or at least I do.

Of course I don't know that I have ever even read of a truly balanced match.

EricW: Me thinks that rifle belongs in He-Man MOR.

[benny hill]

I will be shooting some he-man this year where allowed. I must use a scope as my 58 yr. old eyes cannot see a front sight. There is some that do not want us old ones to play when they do not allow scopes. I also must use an auto shotgun as I have had rotator cuff reconstructed on my left shoulder & cannot work a pump. Hope some matches will allow this as I think more of use old ones will want to play.

[Paule]

Benny, maybe we can put our heads together and come up with a spring loaded bloop tube so we can see the sights and still navigate the props! I can shoot irons great with a 36" barrel... well, maybe not great

[benny hill]

there is limited & tactical w/ the 223, why not in he-man?

[hopalong]

Benny,

I have good news for you....

for the Mississippi state match I am including a seperate division just for fun, the overall match will be the same Limited, Tactical, open but will have a Heavy-Metal division as a test run.

Simple rules.

Rifle Major PF .308 cal or bigger Limited and/or Tactical (depending on entries)

Shotgun 12 guage only no speedloaders

Pistol Major PF Single stack autos or revolvers

Notice I put Major PF..... There may be a chrono this year....

We are planning on the 1st weekend of May so there is no conflict with Area-6 pistol match and the TX 3-gun.

Details to follow as we get them hashed out.

By the way good shooting at the ARKANSAS match... and good to see you again.

Hopalong

[rhino]

I'm in the minority that thinks 12ga (but not 20) self loaders should be allowed too.

[kimel]

I am with you Rhino. I am not convinced that an auto is THAT much of an advantage.

Last June at the Eddy Brown Memorial Metal Match we did man on man with shotguns as a "fun shoot" after the usual man on man with pistols.

Many of you know Bill Sahlberg and you know what a good hand with a shotgun he is. I was the RO and watched another competitor Cory ?(whose last name totally escapes me right now) take him on with a borrowed Benelli pump gun. Bill had his open Benelli.

Cory and Bill ran neck and neck through two runs with each taking one run, barely, from the other. Bill finally won the final run by bare fractions of a second. There are others on this board that can attest to this event as well. I just wish there had been video.

Autoloaders have an advantage? Nope. Pump guns have a disadvantage? Nope. Both require practice and maybe the pump guy needs to work a bit harder on practice.

I am all for the power factors though. I am not sure that .45 should be minimum caliber though. As long as the mag capacity isn't exceeded and the power factor is there then a .40 should be able to play.

[rhino]

Evn if self loaders do have an advantage, most courses of fire are reloading contests, not shooting contests, so it doesn't matter.

[EricW]

[Thread Undrift Mode ON]

My question is who of you are thinking about shooting “Heavy Metal”? If so what guns? Which matches? I would like to have some idea who, what and where so I can digitally capture and wax poetic about your overcoming the difficulties inherent to the division in print.

[George]

I am glad to see that HM is finally getting the attention it deserves from Sedro Wooley. I hope it gets approved in time for the 2005 US3G. Typically, it's only a year, or two from publication in Front Sight to official recognition and adoption by USPSA ;-)

Seriously, I have been defaulted into the MD slot for all of the 2005 long gun matches at our local club. We will recognize HM division and have been doing so since earlier this year. We only shoot long gun matches now in place of our previous 3 gun events (lotsa local pistol stuff and other 3 gun matches available in our area already).

We use EZ(not)Winscore and treat the match like a pistol only shindig. We let the rifle caliber determine the competitors PF (.223 = Minor, .308 = Major, all else judged arbitrarily). We use the normal O & L divisions and designate L10 for Tactical and R for HM. HM is .308 irons (will probably consider 1 scope option if it gets popular) and 12 gauge pump.

We are also not stipulating speed unloading in combo stages anymore. I am letting the stage designers decide things, but am urging that they use hot abandonment into a muzzle control device (horizontal barrel typically).

So far, so good.

BTW, we will have three long gun only events next year. 4th Sunday in May, July & September.

Hope to see some of you at them.

More info @ http://www.richmondhotshots.com/

--

Regards,

[kellyn]

I believe I will be shooting He Man class (I much prefer that to Heavy Metal) at the Mystery Mtn. 3 Gun.

As for the excellent article:

Pump v. auto? Kimel and Rhino, I must disagree about your pump v. auto conclusions. Autos have a HUGE advantage in practical matches, particularly when shooting positions get contorted. True, they're not that much faster when you just standing knocking down five poppers but when you're prone or shooting out one of those little cars at KyleL's match, autos RULE. I firmly believe that He Man should be a pump shotgun with an 18 barrel with a mag tube that does not extend past the barrel. (sorry Bennie, stay in Tactical ) That or a mag capacity restriction (7?)

Scopes??? I know with their aged eyes, Eddie and Bennie think scopes should be allowed. And if I was in Falluja, I would have an optic on my .308. But for a competition class, I think He Man should be irons only. Maybe I'll change my mind when I am as old as those guys.

Pistol capacity? 8+1! MM3G is allowing 10 rd mags, a mistake in my opinion.

Shotgun sling? Hmmm. A lot of real world shotguns don't have slings. But whatever.

Rifle capacity at 20 rounds? I guess all you M1A shooters are jealous of the functioning FAL 30 rd. magazine. But ok, I'll go with that simply b/c it makes the class more distinct.

10mm auto? Just make it .45 ACP. Sure a full house 10 is pretty manly but making it .45 ACP is just easier. And how many people have a 10mm who don't have a .45? Making it .45 ACP does not exclude anybody.

Power factor of 340 (rifle) and 180 (pistol)? Sure, AS LONG AS IT'S ENFORCED. Until then can you say "110 grains."

The whole point of having a seperate class is to have a real distinction in equipment. A shooter with scoped .308 JP AR10, a .45 with 10 rd mags, and a standard Tactical-class 12 g. auto would be competitive in Tactical class, so what's even the point of He Man? To say you shot a .308?? To have a class where we don't have to shoot against Taran?

[P.E. Kelley]

kellyn wrote:

The whole point of having a seperate class is to have a real distinction in equipment. A shooter with scoped .308 JP AR10, a .45 with 10 rd mags, and a standard Tactical-class 12 g. auto would be competitive in Tactical class, so what's even the point of He Man? To say you shot a .308?? To have a class where we don't have to shoot against Taran?

Thank you, thank you kellyn!

Competitors can shoot 308 RIGHT NOW in Tactical class so if we allow Heavy Metal

(my name preference) to run Auto shotgun and 10 round 40 cal's we have accomplished nothing.

I am with you on most of the other points except 22" max on pump shotgun.

I was overly inclusive in the article to allow for some negotiation down to a

common point.

PK

[Helmut]

OK guys, let look at the meaning of the name HE-MAN!

M1 Garand (Irons.....Military ball only-144gr>)

Pump 12ga (limited to 8rds)

Model 29 Smith (speedloaders only...no moons and full power loads)

Step up and be a MAN.....sorry HE-MAN!

Garret

[kellyn]

MODEL 29 with an 8 3/8 in barrel out of a shoulder holster.

[Helmut]

Kelly, I know you would see things my way......haha! Yes shoulder rig would be perfect....

Garret

[rhino]

Pump v. auto? Kimel and Rhino, I must disagree about your pump v. auto conclusions. Autos have a HUGE advantage in practical matches, particularly when shooting positions get contorted. True, they're not that much faster when you just standing knocking down five poppers but when you're prone or shooting out one of those little cars at KyleL's match, autos RULE.

You're right when it's about shooting. No dissent on my part ... but far, far too many stages are all about reloading first, running second, and shooting is a distant third behind. Under those circumstances, I see a lot less difference between a pump and a self-loader.

Of course, at our local 3-Gun matches I have the option of ... "de-emphasizing" reloading skills.

But if you're going to require pump shotguns, why allow 8 rounds? Five would be a lot more He-Man and would accomodate factory stock 870s.

Why allow 20 rounds in rifle? An M1 Garand or a Springfield M1903 is the exemplar of "He-Man." Why not limit it to 8 or 5 rounds?

I think the 8 round shotgun and 20 round .308 are being proposed by the people who have them or can acquire them readily. Five round shotgun and 8rd rifle would be a lot more accessible and if the goal is to make it different from the other divisions, then you've really made it different!

Just about anyone who shoots USPSA pistol with the most modest .45 could acquire a Garand through the DCM program and an 870 at Wal-Mart. Make the division so that they are the baseline, not the tagalongs.

Heck, if we did that, I'd order my Garand this week.

[kellyn]

While I may like the idea of shooting a Garand in a match, I shudder to think how long an average shooter would take to go through a real course of fire, particularly with 200 yard plus shots. Matches would take forever. Springfields or Enfields?? A 90 second coourse of fire would be 3-5 minutes.