DQd today and never thought I would be the "one"

[Gary Stevens]

George is a very seasoned Range Master Instructor, former BOD member and a very experienced shooter.

 

i've listed rules that you can point to that it is not a DQ. What more do you desire (rules wise that is).

[Mcfoto]

I’m not arguing either way but this is in the NROI book I was given this last weekend so this is what’s being taught new ROs.

[Gary Stevens]

Check your notes and the rulebook again. If the final command, "if clear, hammer down, holster" has not been given what actions is the shooter allowed to do?

 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

i've listed rules that you can point to that it is not a DQ. What more do you desire (rules wise that is).

I think it gets down to whether or not you believe it qualifies as unsafe gun handling. Since the wording in 10.5 is "include, but are not limited to:" I don't think I could use your list to win the decision.

 

No worries, if it happens I will let the rm make the call and not fret about it either way. In an ideal situation it would be nice to have the big cheese print the final say in an official document. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by IHAVEGAS
run on sentences are the devil

[Gary Stevens]

So you have DQ'd a shooter for unsafe gun handling, remember the call starts with you, what would be your explination to justify your call?

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

So you have DQ'd a shooter for unsafe gun handling, remember the call starts with you, what would be your explination to justify your call?

 

In my opinion that was unsafe gun handling which is a match dq per section 10.5, please note the first sentence prior to some specific examples, if you disagree please tell the RM when he gets here, hopefully he is on his meds today. 

[Nathanb]

In your opinion what made it unsafe? Muzzle down range, round didn’t impact within ten feet, no prop struck. 

 

I agree it’s unsafe. I just don’t think the rule book clarified it 

[GrumpyOne]

I would argue that it was not unsafe gun handling. 

 

Typically, when we shoot a stage, the fired round impacts a berm...his round impacted the berm. 

Typically, when we shoot a stage, we sometimes do not aim, we just point shoot...this was no different.

His finger was outside the trigger guard as he was racking the slide, so not unsafe there.

He did not sweep himself or anyone else, so no unsafe there.

He was not given the ICHD,H command, so he did not fire a round after that, so no unsafe there.

 

The only thing the shooter was guilty of was that his mind may not have been in the right place...which can be understandable after a long day on the range.

 

I will say this. It was obvious that the shooter thought/felt that he was done. He may have packed up his gear even if the RM had been right there when it happened and told him it wasn't a DQ.

[Nathanb]

I look at it as unsafe from the aspect that at that moment in time s round was not intended to go off. But I also do not think the shooter would be dqed by the book. Especially knowing that Gary and George agree. 

Mught need a change of shorts though

 

 

these are my favorite threads on here 

[Gary Stevens]

When we act as Range Officers we are to apply the rules evenly and only when they have been violated.

 

To issue a DQ and imply that the RM can figure it out is wrong headed, IMO. It is not the RM's DQ it is on the RO who made the call to justify it. My job as RM is to listen to both sides and insure that the call is supported by the rules. Our rules are part of our guiding principles. That rulebook allows us to shoot at any USPSA match and be treated fairly and not be subject to arbitrary or malicious rulings.

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

When we act as Range Officers we are to apply the rules evenly and only when they have been violated.

 

Agreed.

 

When I was in r.o. class I brought something up about production guns, the NROI made a call and a couple months later Troy made the opposite call. 

 

I notified my instructor about it (not being Mr. Smarty Pants, instructor is a good guy & I thought would like the info) and he responded that the call is the call but it was his job to look at things the best he could based on what is written down. 

 

I have also been at a match where Troy & Mike Foley & a very good RM & a very experienced CRO spent 10 minutes figuring out how many procedurals to give a shooter. I would say debating except that you don't really debate when the King is involved. 

 

I think R.O.'s need to do the best they can to apply the rules fairly and as they read them, if and when the RM disagrees the R.O.'s need to not fret about it. The next RM may do just the opposite. 

[IHAVEGAS]

11 hours ago, Nathanb said:

In your opinion what made it unsafe? Muzzle down range, round didn’t impact within ten feet, no prop struck. 

 

Throwing unexpected shots in this example I think is one of many practices you frown on because of what happens when you combine mistake number two. 

 

It is sort of like, why was breaking the 180 unsafe, the shooter didn't even fire a shot? Why was throwing a round after "if clear hammer down" unsafe with "Muzzle down range, round didn’t impact within ten feet, no prop struck" ? 

 

I understand that the book specifically calls out the examples above as dq's , but the book also includes "but are not limited to:" . 

 

Great points made by others about why they do not consider the issue unsafe, I just do not read things the same way. 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[Nathanb]

Got it thanks. As a newer ro I like to hear what others are thinking. It helps me to continue to grow. 

[HBurgSTi]

I DQ'd on the first stage of my second ever USPSA match for breaking the 180 during a reload...  The stage had a table that you are seated at to start the stage; with the gun on the table unloaded and all of your mags had to be on the table;  I was a little nervous about the stage due to my inexperience so I studied what the other guys were doing and tried to mimic the way they had chosen.  Timer went off, I grabbed my gun and inserted my first mag and stepped off to the far left engaged the 2 targets that were presented, then shot the 3 targets that were in the middle (through a "window") and proceeded to grab another mag for a reload on the way to the far right.  That's where it went downhill... As I grabbed the mag and rotated my upper body to head to the next position, I over rotated and broke the 180 as I inserted the mag (prolly about 181 degrees but never the less I broke it)... DQ'd, womp, womp, womp... I was highly embarrassed at the time and it still stings a bit to this day; mostly because I put the RO who was standing a little behind and off to the right (direction I over rotated) and also everyone else in my squad in danger, but I stayed to help and try to collect some good gouge on how not to have this happen again!  Even as embarrassed as I was, I knew I had to take it as an opportunity to learn and it definitely engrained being more aware of where my gun is pointed at all times. 

[Bench]

1 hour ago, HBurgSTi said:

I DQ'd on the first stage of my second ever USPSA match for breaking the 180 during a reload...  The stage had a table that you are seated at to start the stage; with the gun on the table unloaded and all of your mags had to be on the table;  I was a little nervous about the stage due to my inexperience so I studied what the other guys were doing and tried to mimic the way they had chosen.  Timer went off, I grabbed my gun and inserted my first mag and stepped off to the far left engaged the 2 targets that were presented, then shot the 3 targets that were in the middle (through a "window") and proceeded to grab another mag for a reload on the way to the far right.  That's where it went downhill... As I grabbed the mag and rotated my upper body to head to the next position, I over rotated and broke the 180 as I inserted the mag (prolly about 181 degrees but never the less I broke it)... DQ'd, womp, womp, womp... I was highly embarrassed at the time and it still stings a bit to this day; mostly because I put the RO who was standing a little behind and off to the right (direction I over rotated) and also everyone else in my squad in danger, but I stayed to help and try to collect some good gouge on how not to have this happen again!  Even as embarrassed as I was, I knew I had to take it as an opportunity to learn and it definitely engrained being more aware of where my gun is pointed at all times. 

Probably the biggest thing that I got from this was the 'awareness' of position (barrel, body, berm). Sometimes at home when she's not around I'll mentally think of the front of the house as the berm and as I go from room to room I'll practice gun postion. With that and the thought of going 'smooth', but not slow and that worked well for my second match.

[tanks]

On 4/30/2018 at 6:00 PM, GrumpyOne said:

I would argue that it was not unsafe gun handling. 

 

Typically, when we shoot a stage, the fired round impacts a berm...his round impacted the berm. 

Typically, when we shoot a stage, we sometimes do not aim, we just point shoot...this was no different.

His finger was outside the trigger guard as he was racking the slide, so not unsafe there.

He did not sweep himself or anyone else, so no unsafe there.

He was not given the ICHD,H command, so he did not fire a round after that, so no unsafe there.

 

The only thing the shooter was guilty of was that his mind may not have been in the right place...which can be understandable after a long day on the range.

 

I will say this. It was obvious that the shooter thought/felt that he was done. He may have packed up his gear even if the RM had been right there when it happened and told him it wasn't a DQ.

 

I got DQed about a month ago. Last array, I reload and rack the slide and BAM towards the targets/berm. Finger not on the trigger but on the side (even looked at video to prove it later) and RO verified that as well. Hammer fall that got fixed later by adjusting the sear spring.

The rule that was used was the round going off during a reload.

[Bench]

2 hours ago, tanks said:

The rule that was used was the round going off during a reload.

I'm just learning the ropes here...what's the citation in the rule book for that one?

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Bench said:

I'm just learning the ropes here...what's the citation in the rule book for that one?

10.4.3

A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

[Bench]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

10.4.3

A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

Thanks, that'll do it!!

[Pcew73]

It happen to me this weekend at the Great Lakes 3 gun championship.  I went to dump my unloaded shotgun in a barrel and as I did the extension caught the rim of the barrel.  As I pushed the gun down my extension rode the rim of the barrel around and backwards.  My day was done and I knew it right then and there.  Bad news was my day was done, good news is I saved on ammo and got to watch some guys shoot a great match and helped paste targets in between shooters.  Still was able to walk the prize table and won a free custom jersey.  

[Bench]

6 minutes ago, Pcew73 said:

It happen to me this weekend at the Great Lakes 3 gun championship.  I went to dump my unloaded shotgun in a barrel and as I did the extension caught the rim of the barrel.  As I pushed the gun down my extension rode the rim of the barrel around and backwards.  My day was done and I knew it right then and there.  Bad news was my day was done, good news is I saved on ammo and got to watch some guys shoot a great match and helped paste targets in between shooters.  Still was able to walk the prize table and won a free custom jersey.  

So you not only got  a jersey but also a lesson that you'll remember, I only got the lesson...

[Dpolk]

It’s not s matter of if a shooter will be DQ but when. I got DQ for ND because I had just done some trigger work and had an issue and on tap rack it went off, funny thing is the round hit the target I was engaging but they said unsafe gun as well as ND. They said unsafe gun because my finger was nowhere near the trigger. Oh well such is life. 

[MemphisMechanic]

14 minutes ago, Dpolk said:

... they said unsafe gun as well as ND. They said unsafe gun because my finger was nowhere near the trigger...

 

That’s pretty much the definition of an unsafe gun, sir.

[Dpolk]

2 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

That’s pretty much the definition of an unsafe gun, sir.

No argument there. It never had an issue in practice but first match is where it’s gonna happen, that’s life you live you learn. I fixed the issue and not had a problem since. 

[Bench]

47 minutes ago, Dpolk said:

No argument there. It never had an issue in practice but first match is where it’s gonna happen, that’s life you live you learn. I fixed the issue and not had a problem since. 

...and that's one you will never forget...