Draw par time?

[kneelingatlas]

It's funny, I had my first match win at a steel match last Thursday night (in all humility, the two or three top guys in the club weren't there), but I felt like I was going sooo slooow! I had my brother-in-law with me and it was his first time competing; on the way to the range I lectured him on the fundamentals and tried to beat it in to him that getting the hits is more important than the time, he can take what seems like all day but if he doesn't miss any targets he'll finish well.

After all that talk I KNEW I better walk the walk so I took it really nice and slow. My first string I drew and fired on six pieces of steel in ~6.3 seconds, next string was ~5, third was 4.34; I repeated this warm-up, faster, faster pattern on all three stages with no misses. Never once did I feel out of control or close to the ragged edge, all I was focused on was getting my hits. Nothing would have been more embarrassing than schooling my brother-in-law on the importance of getting the hits, then missing steel trying to show off.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Nice work, congrats on the win!

[Chuckdee]

You should watch this video. It has helped me out a great deal!!

[kneelingatlas]

That's an interesting video, but I must be an old soul for 31 since I couldn't focus over the voice in my head yelling "tuck in that shirt!", "what's with the tattoos?!?" </grumpy old bastard>

[jcarpenter82]

Thats the video i was referring to Chuck!!

I liked the way he explained it

[DevinWDH]

That vid did help!

[billy396]

You should watch this video. It has helped me out a great deal!!

Very good video. While I know I'll never be able to draw that fast or that well, I'm just thankful that at the steel match I go to, they allow no holster/low ready. That's a life saver for me. When I started, I bought me a SIG X5 in 9MM and a CR Speed WSMII. While that's one great rig, I had never practiced drawing from a holster in 40 years of shooting. Really never thought I needed to. That lack of experience has come back to bite me. It doesn't matter how good your equipment is unless you have the skills necessary to take advantage of that equipment. The X5 has brought out a real appreciation of fine workmanship, so much so that I got another one. Now I'm hooked on my STI 2011 in 9MM and that Cmore sight makes a huge difference for me. Age can do terrible things to one's skill set, even worse if you don't practice enough to compensate for it.

[J.P. Thomas]

Dang, I suck...

NO...you don't suck.

Everybody has to start somewhere. You are gonna be a Dry-Fire grandmaster ... we ALL are ...

Go Hot on a range, different sorry. From beep to cracking that first shot is probably gonna be at least 0.7 to 1.2 seconds for most of us.

[a matt]

Solid talk. J P. Thomas is correct. .07 to 1,3 that's just about sums it up.

[BobS761]

Thanks for the encouragement! Started Anderson's dry fire drills this week. I just needed a plan!

[JimM]

Lots of helpful info in this thread...thanks!

[Mikethor]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm a C shooter and I don't want to be anywhere a timer. I have a good feeling at this stage in the game, shaving tenths off my draw time is not what's going to get me into B, but getting all my hits and not wasting movement is. I feel like the goal on the draw should be: get a solid grip, shoot two As on the first target, repeat.

How often do you tank a stage? Consistency and repeatability are just as important as speed.

I can only imagine this is more true between D and C; anyone with more experience want to chime in?

I to are a C grade shooter and will average around 1.3 - 1.27 sec for first shot into A zone at 7 yards or so with 1911 when training, This is not what will get be to B grade though.

Same as above getting all my hits, moving faster and more efficiently and working on the transitions. My splits are getting faster like my draws and yes they need to get faster but even though all these little areas add up my main areas I need to work on is as kneelingAtlas mentioned. Recent comp my failure to back up to Mikes cost me dearly.

[motosapiens]

1.5 seconds to first shot at 10yds is not bad at all. I'm a C (about to move to and that's pretty much where I am. I can get under a second at 5 yards, but when shooting real stages, I find it's more important to make sure I get a good grip so I can start shooting smoothly.

Of course having and using a timer is a very important element of training, but of course draw and first shot is only one of many things to work on. I alternate a couple different draw drills as a warm up, and then work on other things (transitions, movement, varying distances, etc....).

I think the point of practicing your draw is so you don't have to waste time or effort thinking about it when the buzzer goes off. The draw should happen subconsciously while you are focusing on the first target array, and the point where your sights are going to appear in your vision so you can start pulling the trigger..

Also, as others have mentioned, start by getting a good sight picture on the draw, and don't worry about pulling the trigger. it's very easy to develop bad habits and a crappy trigger pull from rushing to beat the timer. When you do want to work on the trigger pull itself, spend some time doing it against a white wall with no target. Just draw, watch the sights and pull the trigger without disturbing the sights.

Read lots. Think about what you are doing. Try different things and see what works best (a timer is the only way to figure out what works best).

[wes777]

Thanks for the encouragement! Started Anderson's dry fire drills this week. I just needed a plan!

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm a C shooter and I don't want to be anywhere a timer. I have a good feeling at this stage in the game, shaving tenths off my draw time is not what's going to get me into B, but getting all my hits and not wasting movement is. I feel like the goal on the draw should be: get a solid grip, shoot two As on the first target, repeat.

How often do you tank a stage? Consistency and repeatability are just as important as speed.

I can only imagine this is more true between D and C; anyone with more experience want to chime in?

I to are a C grade shooter and will average around 1.3 - 1.27 sec for first shot into A zone at 7 yards or so with 1911 when training, This is not what will get be to B grade though.

Same as above getting all my hits, moving faster and more efficiently and working on the transitions. My splits are getting faster like my draws and yes they need to get faster but even though all these little areas add up my main areas I need to work on is as kneelingAtlas mentioned. Recent comp my failure to back up to Mikes cost me dearly.

Working on your draw is good. However, as you have heard from some here, this is only one place to find speed. Continue to improve your draw, but dont dump a bunch of ammo at it now. Looking at classifications, draw is a part but not what is keeping you at the C or D level. Transitions, reloads, and splits. The reason I say this is because I am an A shooter in 2 divisions and some of the B/C/D shooters here are kickin my butt at draw to shot times, I probably average 1.2-1.3 or more. That may be holding me back from M, but is not holding you back from A. Most classifiers are Draw, shoot six, Reload, Shoot six. Shave the time off of the things you are doing more of the time, I.E. shooting and reloading, and you will see your classification improve dramatically. More important than the fast draw time is the ability to draw in the same time (1.3-1.4) to a 30 yard A zone. Consistency is what is needed to improve. Draw to shot in .8 is AWESOME, but wont beat your buddies unless you can finish the course of fire in the same fast, consistent manner.

just my 2 cents

[Ron Ankeny]

The reason I say this is because I am an A shooter in 2 divisions and some of the B/C/D shooters here are kickin my butt at draw to shot times, I probably average 1.2-1.3 or more.

I have never had a particularly stellar draw. FWIW, I made it well beyond A class with a 1.2-1.3 consistent "match" draw to the A box at 10 yards. As others have noted, there are a lot of things that are more important than a sub one second draw to the A box at 15 yards.

[Forgetful]

On a good day I'm normally 1.35 from surrender at 10yd on classifiers. "dry fire" I'm sure I could break 0.9 but is that repeatable in a match?

1.2ish hands at sides.

You need to shoot as slow as needed in order to see your sights for that particular target. Don't worry about the time- practice fundamentals.

Don't rush the shot/sight picture, let it come to you. You can get into a bad habit of getting the gun up with an sloppy or non existent sight picture then wonder why there are so many C/D/M, plus that kind of mentality will not allow growth later.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Forgetful

[Dirtychemist]

I'm a C shooter and I use the 15 minute drill. After some practice I can get the first shot off at 1.5 seconds but average is around 1.7. I don't practice anything but first shot. What is the point? So you can get your sight picture in 1 second but if it takes you another second to take the shot I'm ahead of you on an average day.

I think it depends how people measure it. Are we racing the clock to hit that X.X second mark or are we actually getting our finger on the trigger and lining up the sights etc.

[BillR1]

You should watch this video. It has helped me out a great deal!!

Awesome video...Thanks!

[Ultimo-Hombre]

In above video target looks to be 36 inches away....

Oh yeah über fast draw there must equal GM awesomeness..

Never mind that cowboy fast draw guys nail a 21 inch target in about 0.25 sec from 7 yards...

Draw time is not where it's at.

[a matt]

Correct the draw is not everything but it is part of it. 10 stages I'm .5 per draw faster thats 5.0 sec before the buzzer. I still feel transisitions are where the money is at. IMHO.

[simonsay]

I can agree that the draw may not be that important in a match. With table starts, draws while moving, etc., an actual stand and hose may not even present itself. Working on your draw, however, does much more than just reduce your draw time IMO.

Edited August 22, 2013 by simonsay

[Grump]

Okay, help me out here. I need quantification and conditions.

Sounds like don't even think you're even approaching good until you have a draw to A zone hit of 1.5 seconds or less at 10 yards. There's hope that you're getting good at 1.2 seconds. That's a start for me.

So please fill me in here:

3 yards

D: ___ C:___ B:___ A:___ M:___ GM: .7 second???

5 yards

D: ___ C:___ B:___ A:___ M:___ GM: .8 second???

7 yards

D: ___ C: 1.3 B:___ A:___ M:___ GM: .8 second???

10 yards

D: ___ C:___ B:___ A: 1.3 M:___ GM: .8 second???

15 yards

D: ___ C:___ B:___ A:___ M:___ GM: 1.0 second???

20 yards

D: ___ C:___ B:___ A:___ M:___ GM: .7 second???

25 yards (can't resist, I used to shoot bullseye with a 3.whatever-inch 10 ring out there)

D: ___ C:___ B:___ A:___ M:___ GM: .7 second???

Or am I all wet and we should have almost the same draw time out to 10 yards, with 15, 20 and 25 being barely longer???

[Birddog6424]

One of the local matches I shoot has stages with 25-35 rounds and 4-5 shooting positions, so for each stage you're talking about:

-at least three changes of position

-10+ splits

-at least that many transitions

-and only one draw (maybe none if you throw in the occasional table start.)

So the way I see it, your best draw ever can help your score very little, but a poor/rushed draw can certainly cause problems for the whole stage.

I had the pleasure of shooting side by side with a GM; what amazed me was that he didn't have a lightning draw, or machine gun splits, but he wasted no movement and never stopped moving. He was shooting on his way in and out of each shooting position, plus every movement was for a purpose. He didn't sweep past any targets, he didn't even glance where he didn't need to. Efficiency.

A perfect example. I see it all the time in golf.

In a typical round of golf, a 14 handicap (average) will putt 2.1 times per hole. So 37.8 putting strokes per round. But they will only hit the driver on average of 13 to 14 times per round. But guess what? They spend all their time out on the driving range banging away with their driver and hardly any time on the practice green with the flat stick where true and measurable progress can be made.

Just like hitting the Driver, the draw is an important skill to master. But also just like hitting the Driver, there are far more important skills that can be mastered that have a far more measurable impact on your progress.

[Chuckie45]

I can agree that the draw may not be that important in a match. With table starts, draws while moving, etc., an actual stand and hose may not even present itself. Working on your draw, however, does much more than just reduce your draw time IMO.

I agree with the above statement 100%. the index drill in Anderson's book(draw to sight picture) improved my grip consistency, accuracy, and transition times. Your draw time is not the biggest factor in you hit factor, but working on it greatly improved other areas of my shooting game as well. Having a consistent grip and never having to search for the front sight is a big win all around.

Keep at it.

[Hello]

I think C and D class shooters should not even think about pushing the draw. Draw safe and smooth and that should be good enough, there are plenty of other places to gain a few seconds in a match.