Penalty for stepping outside fault lines if written in stage descripti

[nmcferro]

Is it legal to assess a penalty for stepping outside the fault lines if it is written in the WSB?

[Sarge]

You can't put that in a WSB. Freestyle

[JFlowers]

Best way to handle it is with a physical barrier. It doesn't need to be much, poles with yellow caution tape is a physical barrier.

[nmcferro]

What rule could I site to challenge this WSB?

[GrumpyOne]

Rule 1.1.5

[38SuperDub]

Unless they claim its a forbidden action then they can assess a penalty

[Bunchies95]

Stage has been changed to make it legal. Thank you nmcferro

I wanted to make the stage similar to IPSC where the rules say you cannot cut corners.

But I still think that having the wording in the WSB makes it legal, just not easy to defend.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Bunchies95

[nmcferro]

Bunchies, this why I threw the question up on the forum to see if anyone would defend it and how. Because I am sure someone would fight it the day of the match. Like you, I think it is probably legal, especially at a level I match. Why not use poles and rope to dictate what you want to achieve on the stage?

[Sarge]

I think it is probably legal, especially at a level I match.

There is an article in FS this month about such level I shenanigans. The intent of level I exemptions is not to let us set up matches any way we want. Probably 90% of the folks I shoot with would have not tolerated a WSB saying," you can't do this", just because.

I don't like using tape because it is too stretchy. You can push it quite a ways out of place and unless you put it at the right height shooters can and will go over it or under it when needed.

Just take an extra few minutes and put some barrels or walls in place to control shooter's movements

[Jammer1911]

I agree barrels or walls are best but some small or newly developing clubs simply can not afford or even have the ability to store and/or transport all the props necessary to do this properly. Not nessecarily shinanagans just trying to simulate the more elaborate COFs on a tight budget as we get items purchased. JMHO!

[Bunchies95]

I think it is probably legal, especially at a level I match.

There is an article in FS this month about such level I shenanigans. The intent of level I exemptions is not to let us set up matches any way we want. Probably 90% of the folks I shoot with would have not tolerated a WSB saying," you can't do this", just because.

I don't like using tape because it is too stretchy. You can push it quite a ways out of place and unless you put it at the right height shooters can and will go over it or under it when needed.

Just take an extra few minutes and put some barrels or walls in place to control shooter's movements

Even though I'm the MD in this particular situation, I knew what I wanted to accomplish. The OP forced me to review the rules again, and I don't think I can adaquately defend the WSB as it was. I can find rules that allow me to put procedures in place, but other rules contradicting exactly what I was doing.

I do not like using the level I exemption unless I absolutely have to. The few times I have seen it used at out club, it has been weather threatend to cancel the match and set-up was delayed as long as possible.

I fixed the stage to what I wanted by using the remaining two walls. Usually I keep a few walls and barrels to throw up while setting the stages. I haven't had great luck getting complex stages to set up exactly like I drew up in SketchUp

[lenf]

I didn't see it mentioned. What about rule 2.2.1.5 ?? Off Limit Lines.

It says you can use rope or tape.....

[Tim/GA]

I didn't see it mentioned. What about rule 2.2.1.5 ?? Off Limit Lines.

It says you can use rope or tape.....

But must be 2 or more feet from fault lines or shooting boxes, 2 ft high and defined in the WSB.

Also, for those who are newer at stage design- Forbidden Action is for use in the match, not in designing stages. It does have to be written into the WSB, but that is after it goes into effect because of something in the match. 2.3.3.1 a and b can seem to contradict each other a bit with a saying in can be used for unintended loop holes but b specifies not for "cutting the corner" etc.

Also, my reading of Level 1 exemption does NOT allow specifying where someone can move just where targets can be engaged from and when. Not something I ever like to do. That said, done right I am sure it can help some clubs without a lot of props or indoors to still compete. Oh, loved the articles in Front Sight this month. Hoping a lot of stage designers and MDs were reading it and they do more like those.

[Sarge]

I haven't had great luck getting complex stages to set up exactly like I drew up in SketchUp

Welcome to the club!

[RJH]

I know at the Double Tap Championship 2012 there was a stage where you walked a plank and if you stepped off of the plank it was a procedural. This was a level 2 match and I'm guessing NROI approved. The plank was just boards elevated about 6 inches. There were no ropes. I didn't get how this was legal but to my knowledge no one protested it.

[austex]

Actually, it was a forbidden action to step off of the plank and re-enter at a different position, not a procedural.

I know at the Double Tap Championship 2012 there was a stage where you walked a plank and if you stepped off of the plank it was a procedural. This was a level 2 match and I'm guessing NROI approved. The plank was just boards elevated about 6 inches. There were no ropes. I didn't get how this was legal but to my knowledge no one protested it.

[38SuperDub]

Actually, it was a forbidden action to step off of the plank and re-enter at a different position, not a procedural.

I know at the Double Tap Championship 2012 there was a stage where you walked a plank and if you stepped off of the plank it was a procedural. This was a level 2 match and I'm guessing NROI approved. The plank was just boards elevated about 6 inches. There were no ropes. I didn't get how this was legal but to my knowledge no one protested it.

Wrong it was a procedural just for stepping off also.

[blairmckenzie1]

I agree barrels or walls are best but some small or newly developing clubs simply can not afford or even have the ability to store and/or transport all the props necessary to do this properly. Not nessecarily shinanagans just trying to simulate the more elaborate COFs on a tight budget as we get items purchased. JMHO!

which is the reason for the level 1 "exemption", right?

[Nik Habicht]

You can't penalize someone for stepping out of bounds, unless that person fires a shot while faulting -- at all match levels....

The Level 1 exemptions allow for specifying location from which targets may be engaged, but do not allow for prevention of cutting a corner, or limiting the movement of competitors while they are not shooting. Forbidden actions can also not be implemented to limit competitor movement....

[38SuperDub]

You can't penalize someone for stepping out of bounds, unless that person fires a shot while faulting -- at all match levels....

The Level 1 exemptions allow for specifying location from which targets may be engaged, but do not allow for prevention of cutting a corner, or limiting the movement of competitors while they are not shooting. Forbidden actions can also not be implemented to limit competitor movement....

Not true

I had a forbidden action called last year trying to run around the fault line. After 10 or so min of deliberation they said "safety issue - forbidden action"

[Nik Habicht]

You can't penalize someone for stepping out of bounds, unless that person fires a shot while faulting -- at all match levels....

The Level 1 exemptions allow for specifying location from which targets may be engaged, but do not allow for prevention of cutting a corner, or limiting the movement of competitors while they are not shooting. Forbidden actions can also not be implemented to limit competitor movement....

Not true

I had a forbidden action called last year trying to run around the fault line. After 10 or so min of deliberation they said "safety issue - forbidden action"

True. (Exception -- if it creates a safety concern. I didn't see the stage/can't speak for every RM out there.....)

I'd be asking the staff during the build if they had any concerns about competitors cutting corners -- if so, I'd ask them to build the stage out more fully to address that...

[sperman]

I know at the Double Tap Championship 2012 there was a stage where you walked a plank and if you stepped off of the plank it was a procedural. This was a level 2 match and I'm guessing NROI approved. The plank was just boards elevated about 6 inches. There were no ropes. I didn't get how this was legal but to my knowledge no one protested it.

See Troy's response when that stage came up in a previous discussion: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159889&p=1785248

[hunt_fish]

Just say the stage is to be shot to IPSC rules

[AirBorne]

The stage in question was corrected by Bunchies with properly positioned rope. That stage as well as the rest of the match was a blast.

Edited July 7, 2013 by AirBorne

[mactiger]

Per the rules, you can't use a Forbidden Action to control competitor movement, and I can't think of any real safety issues caused by cutting a corner.

The FA rule is overused, used badly, or just plain used wrongly so many ways--mostly to fix poor course design. I like the fact that someone courteously challenged the WSB and that it was fixed, per the rules. That is conscientious course design and setup right there.

Troy