heavy metal rifle minimums

[jjw]

is 7.62x39 legal in heavy metal. i have several that function perfectly and have all the rest of the gear. i am putting together a .308 but am not excited about the cartridge for what i do.

the rules always say 7.62. they usually dont finish it to say 7.62x39 is/ is not legal

if it isn't why can't we put it in

its a lot of new people gun and will become a lot more popular than the 300 blk

any way to legally shoot this cartridge would be helpful

tks

jjw

[Rob Tompkins]

Depends on the rules of the match as most are "outlaw" of some flavor. USPSA rules specify 308 Win / 7.62x51 NATO as do many others.

You can shoot the 7.62x39 if you want, just not in HM.

[D.Hayden]

And watch out for Major, vs Heavy Metal

300 Blackout can go major, but I don't think it'll ever go Heavy Metal

Can 7.62x39 make the Major Power Factor? (and that would only be for major/minor scoring) With most matches going time plus, that's going away quickly.

[co-exprs]

7.62 is in reference to 7.62 Nato only. There have been rare occasions where 7.62 caliber was allowed, without reference to casing. Horner's 7.62 Gremlin, used to win one of the USPSA Nationals is a good example. This is rare however and 300 Black Out is generally not allowed either. There is a sort of spirit to the whole thing and shooting a minor PF 762 sort of defeats the purpose. Also, 90% of the ammunition on the market in 762x39 is either steel core or steel jacket. A big no no in 3 gun matches.

[bigbrowndog]

I do not recall any major match rules allowing 7.62X39 to compete in HM, either by specifically stating 7.62x51 or listing power factor of 360, neither of which the 7.62x39 meets.

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

I think FNH 3 Gun requires 7.62 minimum and 320 pf. Maybe the 300blk and 7.62x39 will make it, but neither will ever be HEAVY. And if you're shooting either at a major in heavy, make certain your load will meet PF and expect it to be challenged.

[co-exprs]

Or at least laughed at.

[StealthyBlagga]

It depends totally on the rules of your particular match.

USPSA used to be "minimum caliber=.30", minimum PF=320", which is completely unambiguous, and so a few years back we changed our IMA-SMM3G rules to read the same. At matches with this wording, any of the .30 caliber rounds could in theory make HM - 7.62x39, 300BO family, 7.62x40. .30Gremlin etc. Usually this means careful handloading though, as factory ammo usually won't get you there. Also, bear in mind that the cheap Russian hoser ammo you want to use will probably be prohibited due to its steel projectiles.

This year USPSA changed back to requiring .308Win/7.62NATO. We did not bother changing back - honestly, I don't recall ever seeing anyone run anything other than .308 in HM anyway, so until it becomes a big problem, I'm not of a mind to "fix" anything.

From the perspective of a rules writer and match official, I am not happy with the "minimum caliber = .308Win" wording - what does this even mean? Caliber refers only to the bore diameter without reference to the cartridge/case behind it. Is there a definitive list somewhere of which calibers are "more than .308Win" and "less than .308Win"? You can see why I prefer the simplicity of a bore diameter and a power factor.

[Alaskapopo]

What was the intent of the division. It was to give battle rifles a place to shoot. Meaning rifles that shoot full power cartridges not intermediate mid range cartridges. Just have a list of acceptable cartridges and a minimum power factor. Up here there is not enough shooters to make this a division. It would be nice to find a fair way to include them in to tac, open and limited and just let them hit the paper once any where or something along those lines to mitigate the recoil disadvantage compared to a .223 but that is less that perfect of a system.

Pat

Edited June 4, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[StealthyBlagga]

What was the intent of the division. It was to give battle rifles a place to shoot.

This is practical shooting - we don't deal in "intent"

[bigbrowndog]

Stealthy, I believe any reputable reloading manual can provide you with a list of 30's greater than 308win, the are typically listed by power and bore size increasing in size as you get further into the book. Interestingly, the european metric designation for 30-30 is the same as 308win, with the exception of "R" for rimmed, 7.62x51R, so does it mean it is the power equal of 308win, no but it does meet the rule requirement when 7.62x51 is used as a min. caliber designation. I thoroughly wish that MD's would simply go back to 360pf, for HM, this would eliminate the 110gr bullets at 2500-2700 from being used by the honest competitors and truly eliminate the calibers that can barely make 320pf. It would also allow anyone to use other smaller calibers that could make pf.

my .02cents

Trapr

[HRider]

Stealthy, I believe any reputable reloading manual can provide you with a list of 30's greater than 308win, the are typically listed by power and bore size increasing in size as you get further into the book. Interestingly, the european metric designation for 30-30 is the same as 308win, with the exception of "R" for rimmed, 7.62x51R, so does it mean it is the power equal of 308win, no but it does meet the rule requirement when 7.62x51 is used as a min. caliber designation. I thoroughly wish that MD's would simply go back to 360pf, for HM, this would eliminate the 110gr bullets at 2500-2700 from being used by the honest competitors and truly eliminate the calibers that can barely make 320pf. It would also allow anyone to use other smaller calibers that could make pf.

my .02cents

Trapr

I like your two cents.

Hurley

[StealthyBlagga]

Stealthy, I believe any reputable reloading manual can provide you with a list of 30's greater than 308win, the are typically listed by power and bore size increasing in size as you get further into the book. Interestingly, the european metric designation for 30-30 is the same as 308win, with the exception of "R" for rimmed, 7.62x51R, so does it mean it is the power equal of 308win, no but it does meet the rule requirement when 7.62x51 is used as a min. caliber designation. I thoroughly wish that MD's would simply go back to 360pf, for HM, this would eliminate the 110gr bullets at 2500-2700 from being used by the honest competitors and truly eliminate the calibers that can barely make 320pf. It would also allow anyone to use other smaller calibers that could make pf.

my .02cents

Trapr

You know, I'm not really opposed to this line of thinking - I like the idea of an objective power factor number, and I'm not that hung up on what that number is. My biggest concern with the HM divisions is the minuscule participation rate... I want to make the division more appealing, but it's not clear to me how we can get there. The current outrageous price of .308 ammo is not helping much, and is probably the number 1 reason I don't shoot HM more than once a year.

[Mickster]

Well Stealthy, in short and the way I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong, if 3G Nation would embrace He-man it would be a different story.

Quite a few shooters who would shoot HM regularly don't, because they want to participate in the 3GN series. And you can't blame them. That's where the fun is, and the potential rewards.

Most of us load our rifle ammo so the cost difference between loading a 5.56 round and a 7.62 round isn't all that much. Primers about the same, powder twice as much, bullets 50% more. Put in perspective with all the other expenses we have to incur, it's not that bad.

Ever hear the song that goes "video killed the radio star"? Did 3G Nation TV kill the He-Man Division? I wonder.

Just another .02 cent opinion.

[Alaskapopo]

Well Stealthy, in short and the way I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong, if 3G Nation would embrace He-man it would be a different story.

Quite a few shooters who would shoot HM regularly don't, because they want to participate in the 3GN series. And you can't blame them. That's where the fun is, and the potential rewards.

Most of us load our rifle ammo so the cost difference between loading a 5.56 round and a 7.62 round isn't all that much. Primers about the same, powder twice as much, bullets 50% more. Put in perspective with all the other expenses we have to incur, it's not that bad.

Ever hear the song that goes "video killed the radio star"? Did 3G Nation TV kill the He-Man Division? I wonder.

Just another .02 cent opinion.

Maybe my math is off but .308 rounds when I load them are considerably more expensive especially when you count the cost of the brass.

Pat

[Stlhead]

I am not sure why this is even a question. Around here no one shoots heavy metal. I did my best to push it, but no one wants to play. And as much as I would like to blame 3 gun nation, they did not do it. No one wants to shoot a .308 with irons, a pump gun, or 10 round .45 pistols. They want scopes, auto feeding shotguns, and high capacity pistols. You can blame the match directors for not making the targets visible, you can blame the price of ammo, but in the end it is the shooters who choose not to shoot heavy metal that will cause it to die.

[Mike P]

I don't think it will die. After all, some version of this same discussion rolls around at least a couple of times a year. Not only that, but it seems that (at least locally) about a quarter of the people shooting 3 gun have the kit to shoot heavy/He man. What may end up happening is for there to be a few more matches that are HM specific. Isn't the one out west fairly well attended? Nothing saying it couldn't happen other places, eh?

[epault]

I would really like to see 7.62x51 made to be competitive in TO and non-magnified. I believe it to be a scoring issue. May be the way to increase heavy guns in 3gun is to remove heavy metal and bring the heavy guns into TO and limited.

[1chota]

I would really like to see 7.62x51 made to be competitive in TO and non-magnified. I believe it to be a scoring issue. May be the way to increase heavy guns in 3gun is to remove heavy metal and bring the heavy guns into TO and limited.

NOT!

[co-exprs]

It's been discussed countless times. 3 gun is already complex enough without introducing more complex scoring systems. The HM scoped divisions seem to do well enough, but the two things which really limit the growth of HM irons is the cost of 308 ammo and the iron sights. Limited division really took off after 1x was allowed. One side of me likes the purity of the traditional HM Irons division, while the racer X competitor in me would like to see the inclusion of 1x optics. I understand the need to keep the division irons (M1As and FALs) and I also understand the need to provide more sighting options (cost to learn how to shoot irons is high and my eyes are getting old). No right answer, but I know that I have 20/15 vision... beyond arms length. As I am gradually becoming far sighted, it is getting more difficult to see the front sight (and read fine print). In a few more years, I will be forced to go to corrective lenses or switch divisions. Eventually the cost of ammo should loosen up, but the iron sights will always handicap the growth of the HM iron division (as much as I love to shoot it). I'll hold out as long as I can.

[1chota]

i shot my M1A until 5 years ago at the CMMG match. Friday was okey dokey. Saturday I couldn't focus on the front sight. Not so good. After that match I picked up an AR platform .308 and started using a scope. if my old eyes had held up, i would still be shooting my M1A. This last year i developed cataracts. I have one corrected, but not the other. that will have to wait until next fall when my shooting season is over. and no, the one they fixed is not my shooting eye. sigh,

[epault]

Then perhaps smaller and heavier targets farther away that favor a more powerful cartridge.

[ShootfastRunfaster]

Then perhaps smaller and heavier targets farther away that favor a more powerful cartridge.

Steel must be reactive (or have called hits) for all of the calibers that are used by all competitors regardless of division. If you run a reactive target that is designed to react to the hit of a HM rifle, you are unlikely to have it react when it is hit with a .223. Sure you could set out separate targets for the heavy and lite guns so everyone can be even, but that doubles your cost on steel and set up / maintenance.

As for modifying scoring so you can run the heavy and lite guns together, it has been my experience that you will still be at a disadvantage with the heavy gun.

Some matches offer a "Heavy Tactical" division where you run the same pistol and shotgun as TO. The only "heavy" thing about them is the rifle has to be a 30 cal with a minimum PF. One well known match does this and for that division paper target scoring is modified to 1 hit anywhere to neutralize the target.

The issue is torque and recoil. The heavy gun will always push you around more and be harder to swing in transitions.

One shot paper scoring seems advantageous for the heavy shooter as they only have to fire one shot instead of two, but the increased recoil slows down your transitions between multiple targets. Recoil is also an issue when shooting at steel targets. If you miss with a heavy gun, recovery for a second shot is substantially slower that with a lite gun. A properly set up TO rifle will display minimal movement if the shooter has a sound shooting position. You will see more movement with the same shooter in the same position using a HM rifle.

I am a fan of the heavy guns since I first attended Rocky Mountain 3 Gun in 2005 with borrowed He-Man gear. I choose to shoot He-Man or Heavy Metal because of the distinct challenges that you are faced with, but I still want to be competitive. With the dwindling turnout of HM shooters in recent months I am reluctantly shooting TO at more matches this year than HM. I go to matches to compete and have fun, but if I show up to shoot HM and the division doesn't have enough shooters to be recognized, I will be at a disadvantage shooting the heavy gear in another division.

I am thrilled that JJ and Denise have put together the He-Man Nationals and we had a decent turn out of dedicated He-Men last year. I look forward to the end of the month when I get to see them again an meet some new recruits.

Kuan

Edited June 8, 2013 by ShootfastRunfaster

[jjw]

Then perhaps smaller and heavier targets farther away that favor a more powerful cartridge.

Steel must be reactive (or have called hits) for all of the calibers that are used by all competitors regardless of division. If you run a reactive target that is designed to react to the hit of a HM rifle, you are unlikely to have it react when it is hit with a .223. Sure you could set out separate targets for the heavy and lite guns so everyone can be even, but that doubles your cost on steel and set up / maintenance.

As for modifying scoring so you can run the heavy and lite guns together, it has been my experience that you will still be at a disadvantage with the heavy gun.

Some matches offer a "Heavy Tactical" division where you run the same pistol and shotgun as TO. The only "heavy" thing about them is the rifle has to be a 30 cal with a minimum PF. One well known match does this and for that division paper target scoring is modified to 1 hit anywhere to neutralize the target.

The issue is torque and recoil. The heavy gun will always push you around more and be harder to swing in transitions.

One shot paper scoring seems advantageous for the heavy shooter as they only have to fire one shot instead of two, but the increased recoil slows down your transitions between multiple targets. Recoil is also an issue when shooting at steel targets. If you miss with a heavy gun, recovery for a second shot is substantially slower that with a lite gun. A properly set up TO rifle will display minimal movement if the shooter has a sound shooting position. You will see more movement with the same shooter in the same position using a HM rifle.

I am a fan of the heavy guns since I first attended Rocky Mountain 3 Gun in 2005 with borrowed He-Man gear. I choose to shoot He-Man or Heavy Metal because of the distinct challenges that you are faced with, but I still want to be competitive. With the dwindling turnout of HM shooters in recent months I am reluctantly shooting TO at more matches this year than HM. I go to matches to compete and have fun, but if I show up to shoot HM and the division doesn't have enough shooters to be recognized, I will be at a disadvantage shooting the heavy gear in another division.

I am thrilled that JJ and Denise have put together the He-Man Nationals and we had a decent turn out of dedicated He-Men last year. I look forward to the end of the month when I get to see them again an meet some new recruits.

Kuan

good post

hey guys i can build anything i want regadless of any limitations on gear

sitting on 2k in hornady tap ammo for .308.

here is a thought for u big time giuys

why not build a simple light .308 good to 500 yds

parts are avaiable

mags are working fine (have 40 something flawless running.

ammo is cheap

ever try to buy match grade 168 gr for 200.00 a cs

works with all red dots'

.308 cans u have aready work fine. (still noisy lil beast)

buy 95% of the parts on any street corner

more available when this b/s polotics is over

no dislikes. lots to like

shooter gets to the longer targets he either shoots the .556 steel or the 7.62 steel. nothing else changes

dont need a bunch of snarky cracks .

POLITE INPUT will work just fine

if not logical i am open to passing but i dont see why with out a lot of input by KNOWLEDGEABLE shooters

thnks for taking it this far.

jjw

Edited June 10, 2013 by jjw

[Liferlance]

How would a .30 or larger wildcat round be judged? I'm asking because 1) I'm really new to this, and 2) I own a 5.56 AR, a mossy pump, and an XD .45 all iron, and I'm way to broke to buy optics or new guns. I Can shoot a round that's just as powerful or more as your .308 Win, why does my parent case matter? I've seen .300 AAC mag loads that are close to the power of a NATO round. Seems like the intent (very important when rules are being made) was for a full power cartridge to be run.

How would a bullpup conversion be handled? Would that be disallowed because its easier to to target switches with?