Spectators Carrying Concealed Ok?

[kend]

I know it's probably been asked but I've searched and looked til I'm tired so....

We're in the process of running a stage at a club match and a guy walks over to watch because he's interested in playing the game but obviously not today because he has no gear on. The RO jokingly says "where's your gun?", spectator dude says "right here" and pats a concealed carry gun under his shirt. After a brief ruh roh moment, one of the other shooters (also an RO) takes him onto the cleared COF and has him ULSC and re-holster an empty gun. It's a cold range and there are no signs posted as such but what's the call here? He's not a competitor so....

And, where does he go hot again? I have my own ideas on this but is there anything official?

[partyboy424]

Don't know about the rules, but at my range we'll walk anyone who wants to declare that they're carrying downrange and have them unload with an RO at the backstop. If they want to reload it, they can wait until the match is over and we'll walk down and let them reload and holster just before they leave.

[bagdad45]

Most ranges are cold ranges and are posted as such although our range is not posted either. I have handled this the same way but usually it is with someone open carrying. A RO takes them to an open bay and has them clear the gun. Also gets an explanation of the sports safety rules. Usually the spectator is fine with it, but I have seen some leave the range.

[grapemeister]

I'm glad you posed this question, and perhaps I will learn something new today, too.

So far, I haven't found anything in the rule book that prohibits a spectator from carrying a loaded firearm. Of course, when I say spectator I mean persons not involved with the match in any way.

This will be an interesting discussion. I just hope we stick to what the rule book says, and not what we think the rule book should say. Or perhaps it will be a short discussion, if indeed there is a rule that prohibits spectators from carry loaded firearms.

[bagdad45]

I think this is definitely an issue where CC is common, for the competitor that CC or a spectator. At a cold range where do unload the carry gun? Can't go to the safety area, can't handle a gun anywhere else. At our range people stop outside the gate and unload on the side of the access road.

[old506]

What are you going to do if he doesn't want to clear? DQ him?

Just leave him alone, let him know what the rules are when he shows up next month to shoot.

[partyboy424]

What are you going to do if he doesn't want to clear? DQ him?

Just leave him alone, let him know what the rules are when he shows up next month to shoot.

What's funny, is the old rulebook used to say this: "IEF RANGE OFFICER_Official in charge of a course of fire or portion of the competition; responsible for the correct briefing of competitors and answering queries regarding the course(s) under his control. Has absolute authority on matters of safety and his authority may extend to include spectators or any person in the vicinity of the range in his charge."

The 2008 handbook no longer says this. Instead it has "

Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons and

activities within the entire range, including range safety,"

If someone really was giving the RM an issue over having to unload, I imagine at least at most matches someone with power at that particular club would let him know it's in his best interest. At my club we have at least one member from the BOD at the match who has the final say on the range safety. USPSA related or not.

Edited May 19, 2013 by partyboy424

[outerlimits]

Many Ranges in CC friendly states have areas specifically for unloading a firearm.

[bagdad45]

What are you going to do if he doesn't want to clear? DQ him?

Just leave him alone, let him know what the rules are when he shows up next month to shoot.

At our range they are respectfully asked to leave. At large ranges where matches and public shooting is going on they are asked to return to the open shooting area. At these cold ranges then a range safety officer can take over.

[Nik Habicht]

What are you going to do if he doesn't want to clear? DQ him?

Just leave him alone, let him know what the rules are when he shows up next month to shoot.

If he's a member, he gets reported to the club's BOD for failing to comply with a safety request from the match director/his delegates -- they take a dim view of that, will invite him to the next board meeting....

If he's a non-member, he gets politely asked to leave club premises, followed by a call to the police if he declines....

Obviously this gets handled delicately -- I'd rather turn him into a convert if I can, but I also have to maintain a cold range and take action once I am made aware of a hot gun.....

[grapemeister]

I think the RO or Range Master would have the authority under rule 10.6.2 to have him/her unload, or leave the range. I like Nik's response in that it should be handled delicately, and we are always trying to get folks involved in our sport. If somebody doesn't want to comply, I don't think we would want them involved in our sport, anyway.

[jar]

I think this is definitely an issue where CC is common, for the competitor that CC or a spectator. At a cold range where do unload the carry gun? Can't go to the safety area, can't handle a gun anywhere else. At our range people stop outside the gate and unload on the side of the access road.

This one we do have a rule for:

2.5 Unloading/Loading Station

2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a

USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm

on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized

to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an

Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload

their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their

firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading

Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range

(or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it

should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact

zone.

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who

arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds

immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely

unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the

provisions of Rule 10.5.13.

[LuisToledo]

Sure, that covers competitors, and it makes sense. You don't want a competitor to be walking around with a loaded firearm while not competing. It's begging for a ND, and ROs should be able to immediately determine the condition of any firearm they see.

However, a concealed firearms, legally carried by a non-competitor, is none of the RO's business. As long as it stays concealed. Once it's visible then there is potential for confusion among competitors, etc. My local club has a rule that if you come on property with a concealed handgun then it needs to stay concealed until you leave.

[remoandiris]

Most states have specific requirements for a property that wants to prohibit concealed carry. IMO, a gun range that prohibits concealed carry is hypocritical unless it is following state law.

At the club I belong to concealed carry is fine as long as it is in accordance with the law.

Edited May 19, 2013 by remoandiris

[Jaxshooter]

If you are running a sanctioned USPSA match you are required to maintain a cold range. This includes spectators. We had one club in Florida that ran USPSA matches and the range owner carried a loaded gun and was informed of the rules and refused to comply. There are no USPSA matches at that range now because of this.

As to unloading/loading "jar" post is according to the rulebook.

[kend]

He wasn't a LEO and I'm assuming he had a permit but he didn't have a problem with the unload thing, he actually spent the entire day pasting and learning. More than some on the squad did...

I did have this thought, this happened in FL so does FL law allow concealed carry at a sporting event or public gathering? I don't remember from the CC classes but I know GA law doesn't so there would be a legal issue there. Or is a shooting match not considered a sporting event?

[remoandiris]

If you are running a sanctioned USPSA match you are required to maintain a cold range. This includes spectators. We had one club in Florida that ran USPSA matches and the range owner carried a loaded gun and was informed of the rules and refused to comply. There are no USPSA matches at that range now because of this.

As to unloading/loading "jar" post is according to the rulebook.

Please cite the rule. I only saw references to competitors in the rulebook, nothing relating to concealed carry of spectators.

[remoandiris]

I did have this thought, this happened in FL so does FL law allow concealed carry at a sporting event or public gathering? I don't remember from the CC classes but I know GA law doesn't so there would be a legal issue there. Or is a shooting match not considered a sporting event?

Places Off-Limits Even With A Permit/License

790.06 (12) License to Carry Concealed Weapon or Firearm

 any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=790.06(12)&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

[Shadyscott999]

Interesting question. My home range is a Hot Range. I don't think there is much a RO or MD could or possible should do, regarding a spectator.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Shadyscott999

[Poppa Bear]

Concealed is concealed. If I do not know about it I cannot do anything about it. It is not uncommon for us to have spectators while we are shooting. Both the indoor and outdoor ranges have other activities going on many times that involve other groups so it is not uncommon for them to observe for a bit.

If you come up into our shooting area and you involve yourself in the match, AND I know you have a concealed weapon then we will step up to a safe area so that you can ULASC. We likely even allow you to run a stage after the match just to get the bug started.

Open carry is prohibited at the indoor range unless it is part of your discipline. ALL disciplines run a cold range so it is not an issue because they have sole possession of the center fire range while their activity is going on.

Outdoors there are bays available to the general public. As long as they are just shooting in their bay we do not have a problem. If they wander over into our part we either have them ULASC, or send them back to their bay because we need to ensure that all holstered guns are cold.

[ramairthree]

My local range is a cold range, with the exception that concealed pistols remaining concealed are exempt.

Similar to a lot of the LGSs.

If you are competing, obviously you are voluntarily taking a break from your right to carry concealed in order to take part in the match and comply with the rules.

If you are on another part of the range shooting your rifle, no one is going to holler over to them and tell them they have to un-heel if they are carrying concealed.

If they walk over to watch the pistol match, I have seen corrections to visible stuff, like put on eyes and ears- but never seen anyone asked to leave just in case they are carrying concealed. If they were carrying open, or talking about having a concealed weapon on them, I assume they would be asked to go to a non-match part of the range so we could continue the match. I have not seen it come up.

I honestly don't know what the legal recourse is if they politely decline to walk away.

[Nik Habicht]

Sure, that covers competitors, and it makes sense. You don't want a competitor to be walking around with a loaded firearm while not competing. It's begging for a ND, and ROs should be able to immediately determine the condition of any firearm they see.

However, a concealed firearms, legally carried by a non-competitor, is none of the RO's business. As long as it stays concealed. Once it's visible then there is potential for confusion among competitors, etc. My local club has a rule that if you come on property with a concealed handgun then it needs to stay concealed until you leave.

Don't want me to have you unload your carry gun or ask you to leave? Make sure I don't know that you have it. I'm not questioning lumps under folks clothing -- could be an insulin pump, a colostomy bag, any one of a 100 things that aren't my business....

Tell me you're carrying, or show me, and now I need to take some sort of action....

It's really not very different from making sure that spectators are wearing glasses, and ideally using something other than their fingers as hearing protection. I approach those situations delicately and discretely but firmly as well....

[Nik Habicht]

I honestly don't know what the legal recourse is if they politely decline to walk away.

If they're visiting the club, they can be asked to leave, and if they don't comply can be charged with trespassing....

If they're a club member, it goes to the Board of Directors....

[Aglifter]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

[remoandiris]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

Just so we're clear, Nik is talking about his home range's BOD rule, not the USPSA BOD. But yes, hypocritical nonetheless. If a person is doing something illegal, that is a different story.