Sarge Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think it is on the agenda because maybe some feel it didn't get the attention it deserves last meeting? Maybe the BOD wants to make it a more formal item on the agenda so when they vote it down again it won't look like they just gave it a passing glance before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Briton, check out the scores from the world shoot, compare limited winner to production winner. You are aware of: 1) you are comparing the best shooter in the world and quite possibly the best of all time to limited? 2) you are aware that IPSC Production has a mag capacity of 15? Nice try tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it. Because the flip and catch thread has been dead for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am aware of both. It was said that minor couldn't be competitive, and I showed that not only can it be competitive, it can win. In local events I am very competitive with a SS minor gun against all limited capacity divisions. Why not fill your mags/get extensions? Cost would be low and you could just shoot open. Your class should take care of the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You can practice, both live and dry fire until your hands bleed, but it will not make up for the differences between 10 and 30 round mags or major and minor scoring. Sorry, not gonna happen. So? It will at least demonstrate the viability of the division if you can get enough other people to join you. I realize you and paul are both actually shooting these guns now, and that is great, but if you can't get more people to shoot them under the current divisions, then i won't be convinced it's viable. I go to lots of local matches where there is no one else seriously shooting my division, but that's ok because I haven't looked at division results for a local match EVER. It's just not important. I'm competing to improve my own skills and increase my average hit factors (on similar stages) and increase my percentage of the local hotshot's limited scores. Honestly I think the difference is smaller than you might think, and ultimately unimportant at the local level, especially while you're building support for the division. People who say they won't shoot it until the division actually exists are just telling me they're not serious. And that's fine. Let me reiterate, you guys that are already manning up and shooting these guns have my full respect and support. If you can get 3-4 guys in idaho to start shooting optics lite, I'll totally join your side . And let me reiterate again..... if your goal is to 'win' something, that's a dumb goal. Except for a handful of elite shooters, you will only ever win if the better shooters don't show up, so it makes more sense to set a goal of just getting better, and shooting your best at matches. If you do that, people often won't show up and the 'wins' will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it. If you think so, maybe you could write your area director. I just did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it. Because the flip and catch thread has been dead for a while. That made me lol, out loud even. I am aware of both. It was said that minor couldn't be competitive, and I showed that not only can it be competitive, it can win. In local events I am very competitive with a SS minor gun against all limited capacity divisions. Why not fill your mags/get extensions? Cost would be low and you could just shoot open. Your class should take care of the rest. That's an excellent point. I'm finding that shooting ss minor i'm running neck and neck with limited shooters of my skill level, losing a few points here and there depending on the stage. I personally think traditional open guns are loud annoying, so when I get too old to see, I was planning to just shoot open minor with no comp anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 "I want to shoot this particular gun, but all that it fits into is Open. But I don't want to shoot Open, I want to shoot this gun. I better make my own division and call everyone who disagrees with me a hater and explain how USPSA needs this division to keep up in the shooting world." "Even though I do this as a hobby, I still want a division where I can be competitive without practicing, even though I do this for fun, I need to e competitive." "Change for change's sake!!!!" "Glock made this new gun, we better make a new division." That pretty much sum it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That pretty much sum it up? No, but as long as you believe it that's all that matters, so you're good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That pretty much sum it up? No, but as long as you believe it that's all that matters, so you're good Haha, I'm going to buy you both a beer, and not stop until you kiss and make up. I thought it did pretty much sum it up, but I still wish you success in getting enough people to shoot optics lite that I change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think that summary was pretty well spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Do the people on here want PO because they think they will be more competitive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Do the people on here want PO because they think they will be more competitive? Perhaps. Some are just trying to get new blood into the organization. Some are trying to keep shooters with visual problems in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Why not shoot open minor. Having a dot on a gun is not going to bring up anyone's skill level enough to make a difference. They will still get crushed by a faster shooter. Anyway you put it our sport is geared toward speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Personally I don't really care one way or another. But I do find it interesting how dead set against it some are. They claim it will water down the sport, water down the competition. But I don't know why they care. They say this right after telling us these would be dot shooters won't be competitive anyway. Well if that's the case, and they won't be competitive anyway, why do you care what they shoot? What difference does it make if you beat them while they're shooting their Limited gun, or while they're shooting their Production Optics gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Do the people on here want PO because they think they will be more competitive? I don't think it will make me more competitive, I have not been competitive for years and I don't see that changing just because a new division is being considered. I've been shooting a Prod/Optics gun for over 6 months and have been beaten by a lot of competitors, the same competitors that were beating me when I shot an Open/Major gun. I am promoting this division because of all the reasons I have specified over and over again. I think it will grow the sport I think it will help retain competitors who may have to leave the sport due to poor vision I think it will help to promote sponsorship from companies that make this equipment I think it provides a lower cost alternative to Open for competitors that want/need to use a red-dot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Personally I don't really care one way or another. But I do find it interesting how dead set against it some are. They claim it will water down the sport, water down the competition. But I don't know why they care. They say this right after telling us these would be dot shooters won't be competitive anyway. Well if that's the case, and they won't be competitive anyway, why do you care what they shoot? What difference does it make if you beat them while they're shooting their Limited gun, or while they're shooting their Production Optics gun? those are reasonable questions. I personally don't think that everyone else should have to go to any trouble before all 12 of the optics lites evangelists have proven there is sufficient interest for a new division. As an MD of a weekly steel match, I talk to alot of new shooters about what gear they have and what will fit our current divisions, and so far, optics lite guns are not even a blip on the radar. I've only seen 1 ever. I'm not against optics lite, I'm against creating new divisions that only 12 people care about. If I had seen 5 people last summer with optics lite guns at my matches, I would probably be alot more open to the idea. If I had seen 20, I would already be promoting it. But I saw 1. And I haven't yet heard of anyone else who has seen more than 2 optics lite shooters gathered in the same place. Beyond that, I think most of the arguments used to support it are just stupid. Maybe that's a mean way to put it, but I can't think of a nicer word. If someone is going to leave the sport because they can't see well enough to use iron sights but can't afford a real open gun and can't deal with the ego dents of losing (even tho they are too old to see), should I really be worried about that person? I'm too old to do alot of stuff I used to do, or that I want to do. So f*(*#$-ing what? I can still do it, and try to do it better than I did last week, and for sure even if I create a special olympics division for old people that can't see, there will be some young little jerks that buy the same guns and still kick my azz, so if I actually cared about that, what have I gained? Not a gosh darned thing. Shoot what you want to shoot, practice, keep track of your results, enjoy your life. Unless other MD's are seeing alot more than 1 person interested in this division, it's not going to do jack for growing the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it.because no one has shown that more than a dozen or so people nationwide would participate. Sounds like more participation than Revolver division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanny10 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Can we just sticky what Motosapien said and call it a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 All of these arguments are precisely why it should be tried as a provisional division for a couple of years. Give the division a chance to sink or swim on its own merits, everything is just speculation at this point, we don't know how much interest there will be if there was a recognized division, the only way to find out for sure is to try it. Will trying it for a couple of years destroy USPSA or irrevocably harm our competitions or drive away members ? I don't think so… I say we try Production Optics, Open 10, Revolver Optics, Compact Carry Pistol, Limited Optics, Duty Pistol, Duty Optics all at the same time and the division with the highest participation wins recognition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Do the people on here want PO because they think they will be more competitive? I don't think it will make me more competitive, I have not been competitive for years and I don't see that changing just because a new division is being considered. I've been shooting a Prod/Optics gun for over 6 months and have been beaten by a lot of competitors, the same competitors that were beating me when I shot an Open/Major gun. I am promoting this division because of all the reasons I have specified over and over again. I think it will grow the sport I think it will help retain competitors who may have to leave the sport due to poor vision I think it will help to promote sponsorship from companies that make this equipment I think it provides a lower cost alternative to Open for competitors that want/need to use a red-dot For the first point, I believe that the number of gun owners that can't be bothered to shoot USPSA with an iron sighted gun but will happily do so with a PO gun with 10 round magazines and no other modifications is virtually zero. I dont think Ive ever seen one of those at a match and the ones Ive seen in non-match settings are extremely few. If, and thats a pretty big if, there is any decent participation in this division, I suspect that it will just be people jumping over from other divisions. Im not sure the second point is very valid. No one has to leave because their vision is bad (unless they cant see the targets), since they can shoot just fine in Open. Third point might have some merit, but since it's very unlikely to be a large division, sponsorship will be according to size (read small). Seems implausible that Glock or S&W would plow large sums of money into a small division with uncertain future, some maybe, but unlikely to be noticeable in the grand scheme of things. The fourth point is just silly. A gun for PO wont be cheaper than shooting in Open, because (surprise!) exactly the same gun will be ok in Open. Creating a new division so that some people can be just a little more competitive seems like a waste of time. Revolver Optics might make more sense, since I'm guessing that division has the highest average age and would be the most in need of dots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I can't believe IDPA didn't run with this. I think it would be a better fit there than uspsa. I do think we will see more of this style pistols in the years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If being competitive is not the issue, why make a new division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I've refrained from commenting on this extremely entertaining thread until now- it is nearing 1400 posts with the lions share from a handful of people, either for or against. It has been interesting to watch the evolution of the arguments, which remain essentially the same at the core but are expressed differently as time goes on. Maybe my USPSA history is off as I've only been doing this for a couple of years, but I believe before SS became a provisional division there was a single stack classic that demonstrated people were interested in the division and willing to shoot it. Let's say the pro POs want to make it a provisional division- why not set up a "PO Classic" to demonstrate that there are more than a handful of very vocal people on the internet who want to make this happen? If you get a decent turnout, make it a provisional division, with some participation target to meet within 3 years to either become a full fledged division or get the axe? I'm not really taking a side on this one even though I do have an opinion- I've spent way too much time arguing with broken records on here. I think that what I proposed would be reasonable for anyone trying to get whatever division to become a part of our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 kinda correct, SS had their nationals as an independent tournament run by the 1911 society for years prior to uspsa obtaining it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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