BritinUSA Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 You can mount a dot really low on a CZ and Tanfoglio. I used to run a slide-mounted optic on my Tanfoglio Open gun and the dot would sit about .25" above the slide (right where the fiber-optic dot would be... It was a blast to shoot, when I could get the gun to run that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) I love the guys here who are naysayers to the Prod Optics idea. I guess those guys think that USPSA is growing and healthy? Wake up it's not, and this idea has serious growth potential, both for new shooters and the ones that left because they lost interest and/or deteriorating eyesight. If you're against this new idea to grow the sport, please share your idea to grow USPSA. USPSA has grown pretty dramatically in my area in the last 2-3 years, both in pure numbers of participants and in the skill level of the participants. I think 2 main things have contributed to that: 1. Shoot for a cure match which has 200-300 participants and is mostly targetted at new shooters, with stages from uspsa, idpa and steel challenge. 2. Weekly steel challenge match for $5 during the non-snowy part of the year. I don't know that there are a ton of people who are dying to get into competition but their only gun is production-optic style gun. But maybe I'm wrong. I think it would water down production a bit and maybe a draw a few shooters from other divisions, but I'm not convinced it would do anything to make the sport grow. I know I was one of those new shooters in the past two years and I shoot with three others who have become regular shooters as well. There seem to be a lot of members (or maybe just a vocal minority) who are waiting for the mothership to "show leadership" and magically grow membership through central planning just the right division or just the right marketing campaign, but I believe it's up to the individual members to grow the membership. And yes, I put my money where my mouth is: I have four complete USPSA rigs I loan to new shooters to get started. Edited July 15, 2014 by kneelingatlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) There seem to be a lot of members (or maybe just a vocal minority) who are waiting for the mothership to "show leadership" and magically grow membership through central planning just the right division or just the right marketing campaign, but I believe it's up to the individual members to grow the membership. And yes, I put my money where my mouth is: I have four complete USPSA rigs I loan to new shooters to get started. word, bird. Growing the sport means growing clubs, and it means individuals taking the time to welcome other individuals and help them get started. It means folks showing up early to help set up and staying to help tear down so that the volunteer MD's don't get burned out. That doesn't mean a production optics division is a bad idea or wouldn't work, I just don't buy the argument that a new division is necessary for uspsa to grow. Edited July 15, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Haven't you ever wondered why the slide and frame and some cases the barrel now all carry the same serial number ? My guess, because theyre all restricted parts that require a permit in most European countries. Probably easier to just stamp all guns than figuring out first which ones are going to countries that require it and which ones that arent. Its not like it's going to matter in the US if they do have a number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 One argument for this, from a business perspective, is customer retention. If, by creating a Production Optics Division, you keep current members who might otherwise leave USPSA, then this is probably a good thing to do. A shooter might elect to quit, as the cost of having a competitive firearm in Open Division is much more expensive than taking an existing division-legal handgun and adding a Dot to it. The rule changes would be minimal. The biggest headache would be having to pay for awards for another division. One question would be that of qualifiers. Would you keep your iron-sighted class(if you have one) or start from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The issue of what to do with classifiers has always been an issue when adding new divisions or making significant changes to an existing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I should think we will need to create new HHF's, but a provisional division for a year or two should allow for a fairly seem less entry into full status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 FWIW I saw on Facebook that Manny Bragg is running for USPSA president so I asked him if he would support production optic division. His response - shoot open. Below is question I asked and his response. Q - "Would you support a Production Optic division? Basically production as we know it now but with a red dot sight on the slide." A - "Sorry zack, i would call that open, look at k.c. Eusebio, he shoots a Production gun with a optic, he kicks butt in open!" I thanked him for his response but didn't bother to say anything about KC's gun being far from being a production gun. I may have come off the factory assembly line production legal but I guarantee you it's not production legal now especially with that monster red dot he runs on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If this happened, why wouldn't you just use the open HHF for classifiers? -Major to minor scoring wont matter, as you have to shoot A's if you want 100% anyway. -No comp, but you have less recoil with minor. Can't see much difference there -No mag well, or race holster. But top guys draws and reloads are pretty similar in production and open -a little better trigger in open probably wont help much. Maybie figure in a couple hundredths per split to cover the differance in trigger and comp? Or just call it open and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Or just call it open and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Let's talk specifics: those who want to see a Production Optics division, when you close your eyes what pistol do you see?Is it striker fired? DA/SA?Glock? CZ? M&P?What I'm hearing is $500 gun vs $4,000 custom Open gun, but that's not really the case is it? If you compare apples to apples: Glock Open gun to Glock ProOps division gun what is the difference? Many Production Glocks already run aftermarket barrels so that's a wash, the only difference is a $60 comp and $150 in base pads.Once you take a Production gun, mill the sight and install a reasonably durable optic on it, how much money to you have into it? $1,000? more?Or is it Open 10 people are asking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Exhibit A: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=198198&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 A Glock Open gun vs Glock Prod/Optics is not even close. A lightened slide, huge magwell, external changes all over the place to the frame and slide, plus a frame-mounted red-dot. All legal in Open There's no way that compares to Production Optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I guess I misunderstand, you want all Production rules, except with a slide mounted dot? Ten round mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Yes, Same magazine capacity as Production, same restrictions as production, holster, mag holders, all the same, the only stuff that would need to be adjusted is the box and the weight issue (I think). This is my current Prod/Optics setup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I guess I misunderstand, you want all Production rules, except with a slide mounted dot? Ten round mags? Correct, that is exactly what we want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 FWIW I saw on Facebook that Manny Bragg is running for USPSA president so I asked him if he would support production optic division. His response - shoot open. Below is question I asked and his response. Q - "Would you support a Production Optic division? Basically production as we know it now but with a red dot sight on the slide." A - "Sorry zack, i would call that open, look at k.c. Eusebio, he shoots a Production gun with a optic, he kicks butt in open!" I thanked him for his response but didn't bother to say anything about KC's gun being far from being a production gun. I may have come off the factory assembly line production legal but I guarantee you it's not production legal now especially with that monster red dot he runs on it. So according to Manny, this is a Production gun ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 No chance Manny gets my vote with that viewpoint! I will only support someone who is at least open minded about Prod Optics, but will seriously support anyone who wants to institute Production Optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 FWIW I saw on Facebook that Manny Bragg is running for USPSA president so I asked him if he would support production optic division. His response - shoot open. Below is question I asked and his response. Q - "Would you support a Production Optic division? Basically production as we know it now but with a red dot sight on the slide." A - "Sorry zack, i would call that open, look at k.c. Eusebio, he shoots a Production gun with a optic, he kicks butt in open!" I thanked him for his response but didn't bother to say anything about KC's gun being far from being a production gun. I may have come off the factory assembly line production legal but I guarantee you it's not production legal now especially with that monster red dot he runs on it. So according to Manny, this is a Production gun ?? 10557258_787696841250711_9068922130615123751_n.jpg That is a production gun. But it is not a Production gun. It has numerous improvements that would make it legal only in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 FWIW I saw on Facebook that Manny Bragg is running for USPSA president so I asked him if he would support production optic division. His response - shoot open. Below is question I asked and his response. Q - "Would you support a Production Optic division? Basically production as we know it now but with a red dot sight on the slide." A - "Sorry zack, i would call that open, look at k.c. Eusebio, he shoots a Production gun with a optic, he kicks butt in open!" I thanked him for his response but didn't bother to say anything about KC's gun being far from being a production gun. I may have come off the factory assembly line production legal but I guarantee you it's not production legal now especially with that monster red dot he runs on it. So according to Manny, this is a Production gun ?? 10557258_787696841250711_9068922130615123751_n.jpg If he thinks that's a production gun, he's too out of touch to be president. Maybe he will come around. I like Manny, but won't support a candidate who doesn't support Production Optics. That gun is not close to a Production legal gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Can we call it Production Operator class instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 That gun is not close to a Production legal gun. Frame mount the dot, take off the mag well and the comp and it's exactly what we are talking about. A hole new division just for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Can we call it Production Operator class instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If I really wanted this new division, I would write a new Appendix D for it, get interested members to sign a petition, ask those members to gather names of perspective members who want the division and make a proposal to the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If I really wanted this new division, I would write a new Appendix D for it, get interested members to sign a petition, ask those members to gather names of perspective members who want the division and make a proposal to the board. And start shooting those guns in the division in which they currently fit, to prove that there really are some people out there who want to shoot them. I have seen 2 (two) of them in recent weeks at steel challenge, one in the hands of a gun-whore who works at a shop and one in the hands of a noob. Both of them have other non-operator guns that they normally shoot with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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