Point shoot or no

[steel1212]

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction if the call is bad a make up shot is going down range.

this to me is point shooting,

and many a high level shooter have done this or you would never hear a make up shot on close fast tgts,

I shot at a relaxed pace and tried to call all my shots today; I could definitely call those more than 2-3" off at ten yards; is bullseye shooting a useful way to practice calling shots, or should it be faster?

Juan, if I understand your advice, you say rip off another shot automatically when I know I've shot a bad one?

Ok let me ask you this....How do you know the call is bad....

Then let me ask you this on top of that. If you have to make a make up shot, wouldn't it have been faster to see the sights in the right spot the first time?

[kneelingatlas]

How do you know the call is bad....

Then let me ask you this on top of that. If you have to make a make up shot, wouldn't it have been faster to see the sights in the right spot the first time?

If these questions are pointed at me:

It's not the call which is bad, if it was I wouldn't know the shot was bad; I know a bad shot when I shoot it because the call is good.

I wouldn't know about shooting make up shots as I have yet to shoot one in my short, five month USPSA career.

This calling shots then reshooting bad shots seems like more thinking than I've been doing; do good shooters think while they're shooting, or let their training take over?

It seems I've hyjacked this thread. moonshoxx, are these questions valuable to you? if not, I'll take them elsewhere.

Edited December 22, 2012 by kneelingatlas

[juan]

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction if the call is bad a make up shot is going down range.

this to me is point shooting,

and many a high level shooter have done this or you would never hear a make up shot on close fast tgts,

I shot at a relaxed pace and tried to call all my shots today; I could definitely call those more than 2-3" off at ten yards; is bullseye shooting a useful way to practice calling shots, or should it be faster?

Juan, if I understand your advice, you say rip off another shot automatically when I know I've shot a bad one?

Ok let me ask you this....How do you know the call is bad....

Then let me ask you this on top of that. If you have to make a make up shot, wouldn't it have been faster to see the sights in the right spot the first time?

by all means you are correct on bolth accounts.

im not at all where I want to be in my shooting, this is what I noticed in my shooting and I hope its a step in the right direction,

to call shots at speed, now to work on what to do with that information at speed.

[BSeevers]

How do you know the call is bad....

Then let me ask you this on top of that. If you have to make a make up shot, wouldn't it have been faster to see the sights in the right spot the first time?

If these questions are pointed at me:

It's not the call which is bad, if it was I wouldn't know the shot was bad; I know a bad shot when I shoot it because the call is good.

I wouldn't know about shooting make up shots as I have yet to shoot one in my short, five month USPSA career.

This calling shots then reshooting bad shots seems like more thinking than I've been doing; do good shooters think while they're shooting, or let their training take over?

It seems I've hyjacked this thread. moonshoxx, are these questions valuable to you? if not, I'll take them elsewhere.

Never think, all fast and accurate shooting is done in the subconscious but of course you need training and practice to get there.

Oh and "ripping shots off automatically" sounds like a version of point shooting. If you are truly calling your shot you make it up, in less than .20 sec and while it may appear "automatic" that word seems like the wrong one.

I will say that true shot calling is probabaly practiced by less than 10% of shooters.

[P.E. Kelley]

I would like to take the liberty of defining point shooting.

Shooting without ANY visual reference to the gun.

If you can see the gun within your vision you are aiming with a visual reference to the gun.

I own and use guns without sights for fun. I can and have done very well with them in actual matches.

But in EVERY instance I have aimed the gun with my eyes. If you can't see the gun and your are shooting…you are point shooting.

Edited December 22, 2012 by P.E. Kelley

[steel1212]

How do you know the call is bad....

Then let me ask you this on top of that. If you have to make a make up shot, wouldn't it have been faster to see the sights in the right spot the first time?

If these questions are pointed at me:

It's not the call which is bad, if it was I wouldn't know the shot was bad; I know a bad shot when I shoot it because the call is good.

I wouldn't know about shooting make up shots as I have yet to shoot one in my short, five month USPSA career.

This calling shots then reshooting bad shots seems like more thinking than I've been doing; do good shooters think while they're shooting, or let their training take over?

It seems I've hyjacked this thread. moonshoxx, are these questions valuable to you? if not, I'll take them elsewhere.

It was directed at Juan who said:

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction if the call is bad a make up shot is going down range.

this to me is point shooting,

and many a high level shooter have done this or you would never hear a make up shot on close fast tgts,

So my answer to that is if your calling a bad shot your paying attention to something. What are you paying attention to if not the sights if you think your "point shooting". why not pay attention to the sights and make all good shots at close range so you don't have to take time to make a make up shot.

[steel1212]

I will say that true shot calling is probabaly practiced by less than 10% of shooters.

I will agree with Bill. I also think only the very top guys truely can say, with accuracy, that shot was high left corner A zone at 25 yards. I know I'm not that good.

[GOF]

I am not one of the 'top guys' and couldn't tell you whether my 25 yard hit was high right or left in the A Zone. But, I can tell when I heeled one high and right (I'm a right handed shooter) or pushed one right, or jerked one low and left. Or just screwed the pooch and triggered a shot before my sights were where they needed to be.

That comes with time on the range... shooting paper targets... and then looking at the target in relation to what you saw of the sights. It does happen with time, practice, and experience.

As far as one poster's definition of 'point shooting' as triggering the shot without the gun/sights within your vision, I'll buy that as a definition of true 'point shooting'. Most shooters define 'point shooting' as not paying a lot of attention to the sights, but seeing gun/hand over the target. I'm not sure that's the best definition. If the gun/hand are visible over the target that is more of a register than a point.

But, I would bet if you asked the 'point shooters' to truly describe their technique... and if they gave it some thought... most would agreee that the front sight of the gun was 'somewhere' within their vision and they did register on that front sight.

[Flexmoney]

... lining up sights is just another task on a list of to do before they shoot back

As I said before...you might be doing it wrong.

If I take the time to extend an arm and line up two things...

Yup.

[Flexmoney]

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction if the call is bad a make up shot is going down range.

this to me is point shooting,

and many a high level shooter have done this or you would never hear a make up shot on close fast tgts,

HUH?

That is nowhere near what I would call point shooting, nor what point shooters would call point shooting. It is actually the opposite of point shooting. You are using the feedback from the sights to provide you with the information on what to do next.

[juan]

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction if the call is bad a make up shot is going down range.

this to me is point shooting,

and many a high level shooter have done this or you would never hear a make up shot on close fast tgts,

HUH?

That is nowhere near what I would call point shooting, nor what point shooters would call point shooting. It is actually the opposite of point shooting. You are using the feedback from the sights to provide you with the information on what to do next.

Flex

then I dont understand point shooting, if I can reference any part of the gun in my vision, I am not point shooting?

must the gun must be hidden from view ?

iF I hold the gun at hip level line up the axis of the bore using visual reference and shoot a alpha, did you not aim ?. maybe not in the traditional sense.

take traditional archery no sights, must be point shooting.

Edited December 22, 2012 by juan

[Flexmoney]

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction if the call is bad a make up shot is going down range.

this to me is point shooting,

and many a high level shooter have done this or you would never hear a make up shot on close fast tgts,

HUH?

That is nowhere near what I would call point shooting, nor what point shooters would call point shooting. It is actually the opposite of point shooting. You are using the feedback from the sights to provide you with the information on what to do next.

Flex

then I dont understand point shooting, if I can reference any part of the gun in my vision, I am not point shooting?

must the gun must be hidden from view ?

iF I hold the gun at hip level line up the axis of the bore using visual reference and shoot a alpha, did you not aim ?. maybe not in the traditional sense.

take traditional archery no sights, must be point shooting.

I don't think any of that has to do with what you said. What you described was...basically...taking a bad shot despite having visual feedback.

I also see my sights but no time is made for correction

What you describes, to me, is what Brian calls a "lack of visual patience".

[Steve Anderson]

When you can score your run from unload and show clear you are calling your shots.

I'm just now getting back to that level of vision.

It may sound silly, but you can practice scoring your drills from the called "shots" in dry fire.

You could start with, "Were any of those not an A?"

If the answer is no, congrats.

If the answer is yes... what were they?

If you can do that, you are calling your shots. If you can call your shots, you are seeing what you need to see.

It's the most important skill in the sport, because it unlocks your true potential at all the others.

[daves_not_here]

Visual patience in my mind is what makes sure the gun is aligned adequately with the target when it goes bang.

When I get impatient or too frisky on the trigger. The gun might not be aligned adequately when it goes bang. Then I send a makeup.

Just wanted to add this.

Also, Brian E. has the different types of aiming described in his book and is a great reference. Buy the book new, used copies are rarely for sale.

DNH

[a matt]

Brian's book addresses different sight pictures, target vs sight focus at different ranges in detail.

Personally, I found the most pertinent/main point of that entire (detailed) section to be:

You don't choose these types of focus; you simply experience them.

That entire section, to me, was basically instruction on how to call your shots. ("Be aware of what you see.")

Now if I could just stop whacking the trigger...

Plus 1 on the trigger whacking. Lmao!

[MC1]

I think the bottom line is math. You do not want to drop these points. These points are "free points". I don't think most people can shoot fast enough to make up for dropped points in this situation. Especially if you are scoring minor power factor.

[sfinney]

I think it says something that the M&GM shooters posting in this thread are not advocating point shooting.

Someone gave me advice once.... don't listen to anyone who is not a GM, and then only if they actually win matches.

[mikeg1005]

I've concluded (from my own experience) that the illusion that not using your sights on ______ targets is faster comes from a person's lack of ability to properly bring the gun up onto a target and/or laziness. If you learn to always bring the gun up in a manner where your sights are aligned, then they will be there for you to use, every time.. If you can point shoot (gun aiming, or watching target) and hit the target, this means your gun is aligned correctly, why spend the exact same amount of time looking at the gun or the target, when you could just look at the sights... you are looking and analyzing something, might as well be the sights, right? You will not waste time, but you get the added benefit of AIMING each shot.

I agree with Corey, see what you have to see.... but I've concluded that seeing an "acceptable" sight picture for a given target yields better results than shooting by watching the gun or the target... keyword "acceptable".

Mike.

[Flexmoney]

I've concluded (from my own experience) that the illusion that not using your sights on ______ targets is faster comes from a person's lack of ability to properly bring the gun up onto a target and/or laziness. If you learn to always bring the gun up in a manner where your sights are aligned, then they will be there for you to use, every time.. If you can point shoot (gun aiming, or watching target) and hit the target, this means your gun is aligned correctly, why spend the exact same amount of time looking at the gun or the target, when you could just look at the sights... you are looking and analyzing something, might as well be the sights, right? You will not waste time, but you get the added benefit of AIMING each shot.

Right on.

The folks that have trouble with this are thinking/doing things in series...first one thing>>> then another>>>then another.

The vision is (can be) separate from the shooting. it can be an observation while the shooting is going on.

I sometimes liken it to a ship. The guy on the helm (steering wheel) isn't the same as the navigator...nor the captain, for that matter.

[Jadeslade]

Buddha sees all. All is good. The mind does not enter shooting. Unless you are discussing .25 seconds with Superman or TK. You can progress through sights to just shooting. Like Daredevil. I love this forum.

[t1nm4n]

Only point and shoot is from the hip, if you have been shooting for awhile you are aiming, whether you know it or not, muscle memory might get you on target but you are still looking down the barrel and your sights will be inline, just out of focus, Aiming is so over-rated when it comes to speed, focusing on the sights is where you start the first time you pull the trigger, it's why people shoot so badly in the beginning, as you recognize what your blurry sights should look like to hit your traget is when you start to get faster. In a year you may forget what your sights look like in-focus.