2013 United States 3 Gun Amateur National Championships

[Jadeslade]

I wonder if you really need to make a cut off between Pro/Am. If you're already running it as a Lewis prize distribution that will keep a good chunk of the pros away, the mercenary bastards they are.

Chuck, I would see a GI specialist. Your bile is overflowing. You're pissed that you haven't heard from Superstition, self righteous about Area 1 locking out non-area 1 shooters for a long time, and super proud of your 3 Gun Nation check from Iron Man. If it's meant to be sarcasm, it needs work.

[Blockhead]

Interesting idea. I looked at the overall results for the 2012 SMM3G and RM3G matches. Over 80% of the competitors scored at 75% or less of the top score based on total points. I always assumed that the "B, C & D" class shooters contributed the bulk of the match fees in our sport. Not sure how the concept will be received by the sponsors...

[Jadeslade]

Interesting idea. I looked at the overall results for the 2012 SMM3G and RM3G matches. Over 80% of the competitors scored at 75% or less of the top score based on total points. I always assumed that the "B, C & D" class shooters contributed the bulk of the match fees in our sport. Not sure how the concept will be received by the sponsors...

I don't understand what your are saying.

[Lead-Head]

Take FNH 3 gun as an example. Only places 1-6 were 85% or above of Mr. Horner's TO performance. That is with 240+ shooters in this division.

[Jadeslade]

I suspect that if every shooter were able to practice daily, with unlimited ammo, unlimited gunsmith support, scores would be a lot different. Having your own practice range makes a big difference in all the shooting sports. So, I guess thats why Ken is taking some time to sort out who is excluded from the match. Statistically, Daniel's scores would be tossed out on the the first cycle of curving the results mathematically. It's an outlier.

[Blockhead]

Interesting idea. I looked at the overall results for the 2012 SMM3G and RM3G matches. Over 80% of the competitors scored at 75% or less of the top score based on total points. I always assumed that the "B, C & D" class shooters contributed the bulk of the match fees in our sport. Not sure how the concept will be received by the sponsors...

I don't understand what your are saying.

The vast majority of the shooters in our sport will never finish high enough to be recognized for their effort. I'm usually found somewhere in the middle of that crowd (and I'm ok with that). The majority of the shooters at a major match won't receive any awards or ever take home a gun from the prize table. This is especially so in multigun since we don't have a classification system.

Please understand that I'm not complaining about the system. I love the game and the people that play it. It wouldn't be the same if it wasn't competitive. I'm intrigued by the idea of a major match that's structured to recognize the relatively "unsung" majority.

[slowsure]

How bout this.

We take the results of any major match and start at the bottom.

Give out the most points to the last place finisher. Second to last gets seconds most points and so on....

Guy/gal with the most points gets the first invite and so on until the match fills.

I haven't read the 3GN rules, but I assume this would be the exact opposite of how they operate.

I'm with MikeP NO rising sun targets!

I like this idea

[JFlowers]

Slow,

What about newer shooters with very little Major Match experience? 3GN really requires a set # of match scores to make it work.

Now, don't get me wrong, I really like the concept. Just think that the defn of Pro and Am needs a lot of thought. And I am sure that whatever defn is chosen will likely offend someone. This year is looking to be a great year for 3 Gun on the East Coast with numerous matches at Fire For Effect and Rockcastle.

[slowsure]

JF

It's not perfect and your right no matter the criteria someone is going to feel left out.

[Chuck Anderson]

I wonder if you really need to make a cut off between Pro/Am. If you're already running it as a Lewis prize distribution that will keep a good chunk of the pros away, the mercenary bastards they are.

So in case anyone was unable to figure this out, yeah this was mostly self deprecating humor. However, I have shot Lewis system matches before and that prize distribution alone does a pretty good job of weeding out those who are only interested in prizes. I think it's a great way to run this match. Good luck.

[Jadeslade]

Interesting idea. I looked at the overall results for the 2012 SMM3G and RM3G matches. Over 80% of the competitors scored at 75% or less of the top score based on total points. I always assumed that the "B, C & D" class shooters contributed the bulk of the match fees in our sport. Not sure how the concept will be received by the sponsors...

I don't understand what your are saying.

The vast majority of the shooters in our sport will never finish high enough to be recognized for their effort. I'm usually found somewhere in the middle of that crowd (and I'm ok with that). The majority of the shooters at a major match won't receive any awards or ever take home a gun from the prize table. This is especially so in multigun since we don't have a classification system.

Please understand that I'm not complaining about the system. I love the game and the people that play it. It wouldn't be the same if it wasn't competitive. I'm intrigued by the idea of a major match that's structured to recognize the relatively "unsung" majority.

I agree with you, I just didn't understand what you were saying. I shoot 3Gun matches because I like to shoot them. Same reason I like to shoot pistol matches.

[spd522]

Lewis class example. There are 30 shooters. 1-3 would be 1-3 "A" class, 11-13 would be 1-3 "B" class, 21-23 would 1-3 "C" class. Make sense?

This is definitley interesting and Katie and I will be participating.

She will probably kick your ass, Chad. You want to play and you gave me crap for shooting AM at the ProAm?

Craig

[MarkCO]

Sponsors should be all over this. The opportunity to get a product into the hands of the average shooter who will try it instead of a Pro who is sponsored by their competition and will quickly sell it should be a good marketing pull for many sponsors.

15% could mean the top 15% of the shooters, not their score. Glock uses the Lewis system and if you have finished in the top 25% of any major event, you are not supposed to enter any of the amatuer divisions. That would take out USPSA GMs who have shot major pistol matches from jumping into this match as well.

I have always contended that there are really three tiers...the top 15, a handful of whom would be favored to win a match they enter and a handful that are either right there knocking or can win given a match in their wheelhouse. Then there is 16 to 50. Some are quality competitors who are simply the victims of father time, others on the way up, some who practice a lot but don't have all the skills to make it to the top, some who have the skills but don't practice enough. Then there are the rest, without whom the Pros would not be on TV and getting sponsorships because it is this 50 to 2000 that spend the bulk of the money on the sport, work as ROs, MDs and such. This match looks to be for the 50 to 2000 group...Kudos. What would really be cool if some of the major sponsors sent their sponsored shooters to RO this match.

I am not bashing any of those three groups, there are quality people in all of them and I have friends in all of them. There are also some of the Pros that do work matches too.

[outerlimits]

Sponsors should be all over this. The opportunity to get a product into the hands of the average shooter who will try it instead of a Pro who is sponsored by their competition and will quickly sell it should be a good marketing pull for many sponsors.

15% could mean the top 15% of the shooters, not their score. Glock uses the Lewis system and if you have finished in the top 25% of any major event, you are not supposed to enter any of the amatuer divisions. That would take out USPSA GMs who have shot major pistol matches from jumping into this match as well.

I have always contended that there are really three tiers...the top 15, a handful of whom would be favored to win a match they enter and a handful that are either right there knocking or can win given a match in their wheelhouse. Then there is 16 to 50. Some are quality competitors who are simply the victims of father time, others on the way up, some who practice a lot but don't have all the skills to make it to the top, some who have the skills but don't practice enough. Then there are the rest, without whom the Pros would not be on TV and getting sponsorships because it is this 50 to 2000 that spend the bulk of the money on the sport, work as ROs, MDs and such. This match looks to be for the 50 to 2000 group...Kudos. What would really be cool if some of the major sponsors sent their sponsored shooters to RO this match.

I am not bashing any of those three groups, there are quality people in all of them and I have friends in all of them. There are also some of the Pros that do work matches too.

I'm thinking the sponsors could give a fat rat's arse about this...what would it do for them regarding publicity? Just sayin'...

[El Guapo]

Here is an idea. Any one who shot pro at the pro am in 2012 is inelligable unless they finished below 40 percent of the top score. All ams from that match are welcome.

[Shooter115]

First off Ken I think this is a great idea. Personally I feel that there is enough integrity in the 3-gun circle that the pro shooters wouldn’t bother to find a way to sneak into the match in hopes of an easy win. If it were to happen the 3-Gun shooting community is such a closely wound bunch that the shooter would be flamed so hard that it would take the entire NYFD to quell the flames.

I think sponsors are smart enough to realize that 99% of their income still comes from the no-name shooters that play the game just for the love of the sport, knowing that they’ll never see their face on the cover of the 3GN magazine. If anything I see this as a great opportunity for sponsors, what a great publicity idea it would be to send your pro shooters to help RO a match like this. Maybe even do some clinics on technique and gear. Just a thought…..

Hopefully this all pans out and I can make it.

[gose]

First off Ken I think this is a great idea. Personally I feel that there is enough integrity in the 3-gun circle that the pro shooters wouldn’t bother to find a way to sneak into the match in hopes of an easy win. If it were to happen the 3-Gun shooting community is such a closely wound bunch that the shooter would be flamed so hard that it would take the entire NYFD to quell the flames.

The core of the problem is defining what a Pro is though. Are shooters being disqualified from entry purely based on their skill and finish in other matches? Seems pretty arbitrary and is bound to stir up feelings based on who is allowed to go and who isnt.

I think the way the Am part of the 3-gun Pro-Am is done is the way to go. State that its an amateur/beginner match and maybe give a few examples on what could constitute a Pro, but dont draw any hard lines, leave it as an honor system. Enforcing any absolute restrictions before the match will be very hard anyway.

Do the prize table as a raffle and only do plaques for finishes. This will help keep the Pros out.

Edited December 6, 2012 by gose

[ShootfastRunfaster]

This is a great idea for a match. I don't think that competitor turnout would be an issue. MarkCO is on the right track as far as sponsors go. It is a great way to get your products into the hands of many that wouldn't normally get to try them.

Ken,

Someone pulled it from the match listing.

[jimm223]

Cool, another large match close by! Calender is going to fill up fast.

Jim M.

But you're a Pro!

[Flood]

I appriciate everyones comments.

I believe that the issue of who is a pro shooter and who is not will be easily solved.

I also believe that Shooter115 had it right-sponsors will get more benefit from a match like this than from a match where the better prizes such as guns and optics get sold the next day.

For a shooter who has never won a firearm to win one will be a meaningful and long lasting accomplishment.

Ultimately, we are doing this match for the majority of the shooters who do not finish in the top percentage.

I want it to be clear that I am not against pro shooters, many are good friends of mine and I appriciate their hard work and accomplishments. I just wanted to do something for the masses who support 3 gun and make it the great sport that it is.

Ken

[dcloudy777]

Being back-to-back with FNH and Fallen Brethren, coupled with Lewis scoring, will keep a lot of the "big prize" shooters away. Peer pressure should take care of the rest.

DanO

[Uber]

Here is an idea. Any one who shot pro at the pro am in 2012 is inelligable unless they finished below 40 percent of the top score. All ams from that match are welcome.

I dont think that would work either... I had never shot the proam before, and i thought to myself, "well, i have a couple of sponsors, but im no pro". So i shot the AM division. I came in second and caught unlimited amounts of crap from friends who shot the pro division... If i had it to do over again, i would shoot pro. but loke i said, i didnt see myself as a pro, so i didnt shoot pro. There def needs to be some kind of distinction

[TMC]

I dont think that would work either... I had never shot the proam before, and i thought to myself, "well, i have a couple of sponsors, but im no pro".

That's the way I see myself, I have a couple sponsors but I'm no Pro. That said in the past 5 years my lowest finish at SMM3G, Iron Man and the Nationals, the only large 3-Guns matches I've shot, is 15th. Does that make me a Pro?

[Shooter115]

I dont think that would work either... I had never shot the proam before, and i thought to myself, "well, i have a couple of sponsors, but im no pro".

That's the way I see myself, I have a couple sponsors but I'm no Pro. That said in the past 5 years my lowest finish at SMM3G, Iron Man and the Nationals, the only large 3-Guns matches I've shot, is 15th. Does that make me a Pro?

Sponsored and your worst finish at a major match is still in the top 15. Assuming you're talking about Tac-Optics, I would throw a flag if you entered in any match as an amateur.

[Brian Payne]

" What would really be cool if some of the major sponsors sent their sponsored shooters to RO this match "

I have to say I really like this idea. The coolest thing that I have seen in 3-gun was at this years BRM3G when on stage #7 the Samson sponsored shooters Bryan, Brian, and Andrew RO'd the stage. All three are great shooters, great RO's, but more importantly they are some of the best ambassadors for the sport. This was some of the best advertising I have ever seen by a company.

On the same token I wouldn't expect these guys to not be able to shoot the match though. Maybe the Pro's could RO and shoot for their own prizes on a separate prize table.