All ammo must come from table

[Sarge]

How much does the magazine need to pull out before re-penetration can be considered legal? This is a serious question

Okay, perhaps not. Kevin has an excellent point though. I assert that additional language in the next revision of the rules stipulates that a reload must pertain to a source that has not yet been utilized in the current COF. (I know...what if you shoot El Prez and your reload mag pukes on you... You should have brought more mags than 2 to the stage)

Another excellent point. Let's say you do go to a new mag and it falls out onto the ground but your first mag you dropped ended up on the table. You would be crazy to go to the ground for a mag when one is laying right in front of you.

I would say as long as the mag clears the mag well it is out of the gun.

[Paul Santiago]

"you must use a different magazine for each reload"

How's that?

[HoMiE]

"you must use a different magazine for each reload"

How's that?

Not ambiguous enough

[Micah]

My counterpoint to my point is what if a competitor knocks a few mags out of their belt while running, then goes dry at the end of the COF. They run back to retrieve a dropped mag and happen to grab one out of the pile of three. The one he/she grabbed is one that they already used. How is the RO supposed to know which witch is which?

One would postulate that the rule should state that once the mag/moonclip has left either the pistol or belt, it is considered no longer accessible during that COF.

This topic has blown minds....man:

[Paul Santiago]

"you must use a different magazine for each reload"

How's that?

Not ambiguous enough

oh I know. someone would say if you dropped your second mag on the reload and went back to the original mag, it's not a different magazine. At some point the silly nitpickiness has to stop and some common sense be used. I know ... that's just crazy talk. You could always write the WSB so detailed to cover every silly scenario, that you put people to sleep while stretching the match time out.

[Paul Santiago]

I found this same discussion from 2004.

Reload or Reinsert

[Nik Habicht]

My counterpoint to my point is what if a competitor knocks a few mags out of their belt while running, then goes dry at the end of the COF. They run back to retrieve a dropped mag and happen to grab one out of the pile of three. The one he/she grabbed is one that they already used. How is the RO supposed to know which witch is which?

One would postulate that the rule should state that once the mag/moonclip has left either the pistol or belt, it is considered no longer accessible during that COF.

This topic has blown minds....man:

And that's so not what we're talking about here -- so I'm fine with that situation.....

The idea that you drop, catch, and reinsert and call it a reload -- well, lets just say that NROI frowns on that.....

[aztecdriver]

My counterpoint to my point is what if a competitor knocks a few mags out of their belt while running, then goes dry at the end of the COF. They run back to retrieve a dropped mag and happen to grab one out of the pile of three. The one he/she grabbed is one that they already used. How is the RO supposed to know which witch is which?

One would postulate that the rule should state that once the mag/moonclip has left either the pistol or belt, it is considered no longer accessible during that COF.

This topic has blown minds....man:

And that's so not what we're talking about here -- so I'm fine with that situation.....

The idea that you drop, catch, and reinsert and call it a reload -- well, lets just say that NROI frowns on that.....

By what rule Nik. I had this issue where I just didn't have enough mags. There wasn't any left on my belt, I had to do a reload - dropped the mag, caught it on the way down - even fake brought it from my belt and shoved it in the gun and went. It's a tiny little match - and I was too busy running it to think about getting the extra mag out of my bag before "BEEEP". By definition - where did I not follow the rules:

Reloading - the replenishment or insertion of additional ammo. I inserted additional ammo because I definitely "unloaded" the gun - mag left the gun. Does it say I can't catch a mag? I loaded the gun - because I put the magazine in the gun. It was in my hand.

NROI can frown on it all it wants - but until it codifies it in the rulebook - I need to see an interpretation or another rule where my version violates the rules.

[GrumpyOne]

My counterpoint to my point is what if a competitor knocks a few mags out of their belt while running, then goes dry at the end of the COF. They run back to retrieve a dropped mag and happen to grab one out of the pile of three. The one he/she grabbed is one that they already used. How is the RO supposed to know which witch is which?

One would postulate that the rule should state that once the mag/moonclip has left either the pistol or belt, it is considered no longer accessible during that COF.

This topic has blown minds....man:

And that's so not what we're talking about here -- so I'm fine with that situation.....

The idea that you drop, catch, and reinsert and call it a reload -- well, lets just say that NROI frowns on that.....

By what rule Nik. I had this issue where I just didn't have enough mags. There wasn't any left on my belt, I had to do a reload - dropped the mag, caught it on the way down - even fake brought it from my belt and shoved it in the gun and went. It's a tiny little match - and I was too busy running it to think about getting the extra mag out of my bag before "BEEEP". By definition - where did I not follow the rules:

Reloading - the replenishment or insertion of additional ammo. I inserted additional ammo because I definitely "unloaded" the gun - mag left the gun. Does it say I can't catch a mag? I loaded the gun - because I put the magazine in the gun. It was in my hand.

NROI can frown on it all it wants - but until it codifies it in the rulebook - I need to see an interpretation or another rule where my version violates the rules.

I agree. When you dropped the mag, you had at most 1 round left in the gun. When you caught it and re-inserted it, you were replenishing the ammo into the gun. Either words work, replenishment or insertion of additional ammo, since at the time you only had one round...

[Nik Habicht]

My counterpoint to my point is what if a competitor knocks a few mags out of their belt while running, then goes dry at the end of the COF. They run back to retrieve a dropped mag and happen to grab one out of the pile of three. The one he/she grabbed is one that they already used. How is the RO supposed to know which witch is which?

One would postulate that the rule should state that once the mag/moonclip has left either the pistol or belt, it is considered no longer accessible during that COF.

This topic has blown minds....man:

And that's so not what we're talking about here -- so I'm fine with that situation.....

The idea that you drop, catch, and reinsert and call it a reload -- well, lets just say that NROI frowns on that.....

By what rule Nik. I had this issue where I just didn't have enough mags. There wasn't any left on my belt, I had to do a reload - dropped the mag, caught it on the way down - even fake brought it from my belt and shoved it in the gun and went. It's a tiny little match - and I was too busy running it to think about getting the extra mag out of my bag before "BEEEP". By definition - where did I not follow the rules:

Reloading - the replenishment or insertion of additional ammo. I inserted additional ammo because I definitely "unloaded" the gun - mag left the gun. Does it say I can't catch a mag? I loaded the gun - because I put the magazine in the gun. It was in my hand.

NROI can frown on it all it wants - but until it codifies it in the rulebook - I need to see an interpretation or another rule where my version violates the rules.

I call BS. You had 1 round in the same chamber and x rounds in the magazine. When you dropped and reinserted that same mag, you would up with one in the chamber and the identical x rounds in the gun. (That you may have tried a longer movement, to not gain an advantage is admirable, but ultimately irrelevant.) You failed to comply with "the replenishment or insertion of additional ammo" into the gun. The end result of your "reload" was that you wound up with the identical bullets in the gun. You should have been assessed one procedural per shot fired after the point where the reload was required -- this isn't hard.....

[Nik Habicht]

My counterpoint to my point is what if a competitor knocks a few mags out of their belt while running, then goes dry at the end of the COF. They run back to retrieve a dropped mag and happen to grab one out of the pile of three. The one he/she grabbed is one that they already used. How is the RO supposed to know which witch is which?

One would postulate that the rule should state that once the mag/moonclip has left either the pistol or belt, it is considered no longer accessible during that COF.

This topic has blown minds....man:

And that's so not what we're talking about here -- so I'm fine with that situation.....

The idea that you drop, catch, and reinsert and call it a reload -- well, lets just say that NROI frowns on that.....

By what rule Nik. I had this issue where I just didn't have enough mags. There wasn't any left on my belt, I had to do a reload - dropped the mag, caught it on the way down - even fake brought it from my belt and shoved it in the gun and went. It's a tiny little match - and I was too busy running it to think about getting the extra mag out of my bag before "BEEEP". By definition - where did I not follow the rules:

Reloading - the replenishment or insertion of additional ammo. I inserted additional ammo because I definitely "unloaded" the gun - mag left the gun. Does it say I can't catch a mag? I loaded the gun - because I put the magazine in the gun. It was in my hand.

NROI can frown on it all it wants - but until it codifies it in the rulebook - I need to see an interpretation or another rule where my version violates the rules.

I agree. When you dropped the mag, you had at most 1 round left in the gun. When you caught it and re-inserted it, you were replenishing the ammo into the gun. Either words work, replenishment or insertion of additional ammo, since at the time you only had one round...

BS also. The reload process includes dropping the mag for autoloaders -- hence the need to keep the trigger out of the guard file accomplishing that....

[ac4wordplay]

... -- hence the need to keep the trigger out of the guard file accomplishing that....

?

[Nik Habicht]

file should have been while.....

[Alaskapopo]

I don't know why we continue to try and find new ways to game stages. Why can't we just shoot the stage like it was intended?

We do this because we are playing a game. If you want "spirt and intent", go play IDPA.

True but it was stuff like this which caused people to break and form IDPA. I love playing the game but some of this stuff just makes me shake my head. It makes it doubly hard on a stage designer because he has to think of every way the range attorney's are going to try and skirt the stage. Pretty soon we will have to have 5 page briefs for stage descriptions.

Pat

Edited October 27, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Flexmoney]

I don't know why we continue to try and find new ways to game stages. Why can't we just shoot the stage like it was intended?

We do this because we are playing a game. If you want "spirt and intent", go play IDPA.

True but it was stuff like this which caused people to break and form IDPA. I love playing the game but some of this stuff just makes me shake my head. It makes it doubly hard on a stage designer because he has to think of every way the range attorney's are going to try and skirt the stage. Pretty soon we will have to have 5 page briefs for stage descriptions.

Pat

USPSA doesn't have the long stage descriptions, fwiw.

In this case, I suppose the RM could REALLY define the procedure in the WSB...for those that can't figure out what a reload is. (after ordering up a re-shoot)

[bbbean]

True but it was stuff like this which caused people to break and form IDPA. I love playing the game but some of this stuff just makes me shake my head. It makes it doubly hard on a stage designer because he has to think of every way the range attorney's are going to try and skirt the stage. Pretty soon we will have to have 5 page briefs for stage descriptions.

Pat

For me, one of the best parts of designing a stage is seeing how different shooters try to game it. We have a couple of regular shooters who live to game stages, and I always look forward to seeing whether they find new ways to shoot my stages.

BB

[Chris Keen]

I don't know why we continue to try and find new ways to game stages. Why can't we just shoot the stage like it was intended?

We do this because we are playing a game. If you want "spirt and intent", go play IDPA.

True but it was stuff like this which caused people to break and form IDPA. I love playing the game but some of this stuff just makes me shake my head. It makes it doubly hard on a stage designer because he has to think of every way the range attorney's are going to try and skirt the stage. Pretty soon we will have to have 5 page briefs for stage descriptions.

Pat

My thoughts exactly ......

For me, one of the best parts of designing a stage is seeing how different shooters try to game it. We have a couple of regular shooters who live to game stages, and I always look forward to seeing whether they find new ways to shoot my stages.

BB

I'm all in for seeing how different people try to game a stage, but what we're talking about here isn't gaming ....... it's ridiculous! It's ludicrous to think that you can drop your mag, catch it, and re-insert it in the gun ... and call that an acceptable reload per the rules. If people somehow think that's acceptable, why haven't we been doing it that way all along? Why now, is it suddenly okay to think that will fly with NROI?

And if that suddenly is allowed, wouldn't that completely blow all the High Hit Factors out of the water on classifiers like El Pres? How do we fix that?

And what about the L-10, Prod., & SS shooters? We must be strictly talking to the Open / LTD guys & gals, because doing a stage that requires 6 RELOAD 6 the way it's been described above would be an immediate BUMP TO OPEN for anyone in SS, L10, PROD who starts a stage with more than 10 rounds in the mag at the start signal, right?

And dont forget to tell all the revolver shooters that it's "Too bad, so sad" that they can't just swing open the cylinder & close it again to constitute a reload like every bottom feeder shooter now wants to do?!

[aztecdriver]

I don't know why we continue to try and find new ways to game stages. Why can't we just shoot the stage like it was intended?

We do this because we are playing a game. If you want "spirt and intent", go play IDPA.

True but it was stuff like this which caused people to break and form IDPA. I love playing the game but some of this stuff just makes me shake my head. It makes it doubly hard on a stage designer because he has to think of every way the range attorney's are going to try and skirt the stage. Pretty soon we will have to have 5 page briefs for stage descriptions.

Pat

My thoughts exactly ......

For me, one of the best parts of designing a stage is seeing how different shooters try to game it. We have a couple of regular shooters who live to game stages, and I always look forward to seeing whether they find new ways to shoot my stages.

BB

I'm all in for seeing how different people try to game a stage, but what we're talking about here isn't gaming ....... it's ridiculous! It's ludicrous to think that you can drop your mag, catch it, and re-insert it in the gun ... and call that an acceptable reload per the rules. If people somehow think that's acceptable, why haven't we been doing it that way all along? Why now, is it suddenly okay to think that will fly with NROI?

And if that suddenly is allowed, wouldn't that completely blow all the High Hit Factors out of the water on classifiers like El Pres? How do we fix that?

And what about the L-10, Prod., & SS shooters? We must be strictly talking to the Open / LTD guys & gals, because doing a stage that requires 6 RELOAD 6 the way it's been described above would be an immediate BUMP TO OPEN for anyone in SS, L10, PROD who starts a stage with more than 10 rounds in the mag at the start signal, right?

And dont forget to tell all the revolver shooters that it's "Too bad, so sad" that they can't just swing open the cylinder & close it again to constitute a reload like every bottom feeder shooter now wants to do?!

Fine. - Quote the rules, Chris. I'm more than willing to entertain how it's not a reload. How about this - I let the mag hit the ground. Will that satisfy your needs? If so - where is it in the rulebook.

Per Nik's CALL of BS - his example is BS. No one cares how much ammo is in the magazine or whether its exactly the same count as before you dumped the mag. When the mag left the gun, it's unloading. Whether it's the SAME mag or a DIFFERENT mag. Here's some "rules" to digest...

5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Is the magazine discarded after it free falls from the gun? Where does it say it has to be completely dead on the ground before I can pick it up afterwards.

Another one:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Here's another one. I'm not talking about the situation where someone actually has mags on his/her belt and tries to game the system by letting the mag leave the gun by an inch slams it in and calls it a reload, with a source of ammo on their belt. I'm talking about the person that takes off from a standard box to another standard box (ie., stage 11 at nats) and upon leaving the first box the reload mags fall out of your belt. My ammo source is exhausted.

Again, show me where the source of ammo from a mandatory reload must be DIFFERENT than the one in the gun. Gladly entertain discussion on it - but let me clarify - I don't care how stupid, or whether it's a good idea - and I'm not necessarily promoting it. But if you are going to sit there and tell me how it's not allowed - bring some rules, because I don't care the RESULTS of the consequences. I'm telling you I don't see the "disallowed" portion of this, no matter how Nik applies logic, or you apply emotion and fear-of-the-results.

Edited October 29, 2012 by aztecdriver

[Chris Keen]

I found this same discussion from 2004.

Reload or Reinsert

Thanks Paul, but again, we didn't come up with an actual rule to prohibit this. Only that it's the intent of the general rules that a reload be performed with a fresh magazine. (of course the sarcastic nature of Vince's replies didn't really help foster an answer)

Honestly, I'm not sure why we need clarification on this. I've personally never seen anyone attempt to game this exact procedure at a club match ... let alone an Area match, Nationals, or a World Shoot.

But I can see where the range lawyers can't find it in the rules verbatim, the way it's being described here, but it still begs the question: "Then why haven't we been doing it that way all along?"

And how far out of the gun would the mag have to be? 1 inch? 1/2 inch? 1/4 inch? What if the shooter says he saw the feed lips of the mag, before slamming it back in, but the RO did not? Who's right?

[lcs]

To make the rule book thicker---New Rule to prevent OPEN/LIM shooters from gaming the game.

A "mandatory reload" can not be performed with the same magazine unless the magazine has been retrieved from the ground. Until that rule is in the books---IF you can retrieve a mag that hits the ground, why not it mid air.

( if catching a mag in mid air was faster, then I'm sure some GM would have mastered it long ago.)

[Paul Santiago]

WSB..... blah, blah, blah... "reload with a second magazine coming from the table/pouch/purse/bucket/shopping cart/wherever"

[Sarge]

WSB..... blah, blah, blah... "reload with a second magazine coming from the table/pouch/purse/bucket/shopping cart/wherever"

Not me buddy!

[Skydiver]

We had a similar stage at yesterdays match. all mags on table including gun empty unprepped. IT just said that.

So a shooter picked up extra mags and stowed in his jackets front pocket. Single Stack.

Table was in the middle of shooting area, 2 shooting arrays on left and right of the table. With all mags on table to start, does this over ride Appendix E3?

An open or limited shooter maybe good to go with that strategy, a single stack shooter may run afoul of 5.2.4, though.

[Skizeks]

Small drift. How do you know the intent of the stage designer? I havn't been able to get the intent of the stage into a walk through that a range lawer wouldn't try to shred up.

I don't know why we continue to try and find new ways to game stages. Why can't we just shoot the stage like it was intended?

Now that's funny. EVERY shooter, including yourself, who shoots a stage other than the way the designer intended it would be guilty.

[Norther]

We had a similar stage at yesterdays match. all mags on table including gun empty unprepped. IT just said that.

So a shooter picked up extra mags and stowed in his jackets front pocket. Single Stack.

Table was in the middle of shooting area, 2 shooting arrays on left and right of the table. With all mags on table to start, does this over ride Appendix E3?

No. There's thread on this somewhere. Off to Open with him!

Also, I'm pretty sure I saw a ruling published in Front Sight prohibiting this type of "reload". Can't remember which issue, of course...