Kevin Pledger Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire. Normally at an IPSC, they do an equipment check before the match starts, as a courtesy, its not mandatory you do so(some people like this, some people dont, some have differing opinions), where your equipment is checked against the division rules you declare, if something is not in compliance it can be rectified before the match, however equipment and placement is STILL checked per stage as per the declared equipment sheet, and at chrono. Cheers .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I think 70 speedlimit on interstate is bogus but Mr. Trooper reminded me that it is not only a good idea but the LAW.... Maybe it was because the placement of her belt "stuck out" when compared to the other lady shooters..... thanks for posting the photos. it looks to me like at least 2-3 others in the picture have the belt in a similar position (related to their own anatomy, not to their clothing), and I remember at least a couple others not pictured that seemed similar to me too. And of course, going by the rulebook picture, the majority of competitors (male and female) appear to be illegal. How do you choose who to punish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Am I the only one that thinks placement of mag pouches and belt location is BS? Who,gives a shi$t about that stuff. I think its a whole lot of BS. She outshot everyone in her category. After she shot all the stages she gets bumped? From the pictures of the other female competitors i have seen she was not alone with odd belt placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 ....it is actually sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 CZ Shadow with an adjustable sight milled into the slide. Not legal in IPSC production but legal in USPSA production division. fact or fiction? How do you know she had this done?...there are adjustable sights made for the CZ. Did you SEE the gun up close, handle it, etc? I find it odd you are posting this information, especially when it has nothing to do with the USPSA Nationals. The Shadow with adjustable sights isn't IPSC legal as its a CZC gun not a CZ gun if I'm telling that correctly and therefore not IPSC legal. The powers that be in IPSC don't see CZC as a manufacture and won't allow that gun. Its the reason for the HAJO sight, so those folks in IPSC can have height adjustable sights. Now back to the thread at hand, so she had belt loops added to her shorts so she could lower her belt down. That in itself isn't illegal right? I thought ladies could have their gear lower. So if so, how much lower would be the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Not sure about that...as any sights can be used. In USPSA, the us made cz guns are legal to use...so......if we are talking about a USPSA match...she would be good to go. I did not see the gun so i can only theorize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Am I the only one that thinks placement of mag pouches and belt location is BS? Who,gives a shi$t about that stuff. I think its a whole lot of BS. She outshot everyone in her category. After she shot all the stages she gets bumped? From the pictures of the other female competitors i have seen she was not alone with odd belt placement. You're are incorrect on you assumption that she went through the whole match in Production. The Arb was filed at about 1:35 on the second day of the match and decided that afternoon. I think (not 100% positive which schedule she was on but I believe AM/PM/AM) she only shot about a third of the match before being bumped. Steel1212, read the thread. The rule that allows female competitors to wear the belt below the waist does not apply in Production per Appendix D. It's been mentioned a couple times before. To the couple of guys who keeps quoting the last half of 5.3.2 as reason why the belt can be anywhere. You need to read the whole rule, not just the sentence you think supports your position. 5.3.2 starts off by saying the belt must be worn at the waist ... Period. It then describes how the belt must be worn, either securely fixed or with three belt loops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Not sure about that...as any sights can be used. In USPSA, the us made cz guns are legal to use...so......if we are talking about a USPSA match...she would be good to go. I did not see the gun so i can only theorize. Her gun was illegal for the IPSC nationals not the USPSA nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Am I the only one that thinks placement of mag pouches and belt location is BS? Who,gives a shi$t about that stuff. I think its a whole lot of BS. She outshot everyone in her category. After she shot all the stages she gets bumped? From the pictures of the other female competitors i have seen she was not alone with odd belt placement. You're are incorrect on you assumption that she went through the whole match in Production. The Arb was filed at about 1:35 on the second day of the match and decided that afternoon. I think (not 100% positive which schedule she was on but I believe AM/PM/AM) she only shot about a third of the match before being bumped. Steel1212, read the thread. The rule that allows female competitors to wear the belt below the waist does not apply in Production per Appendix D. It's been mentioned a couple times before. To the couple of guys who keeps quoting the last half of 5.3.2 as reason why the belt can be anywhere. You need to read the whole rule, not just the sentence you think supports your position. 5.3.2 starts off by saying the belt must be worn at the waist ... Period. It then describes how the belt must be worn, either securely fixed or with three belt loops. Was lazy, thanks Chuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Am I the only one that thinks placement of mag pouches and belt location is BS? Who,gives a shi$t about that stuff. I think its a whole lot of BS. She outshot everyone in her category. After she shot all the stages she gets bumped? From the pictures of the other female competitors i have seen she was not alone with odd belt placement. You're are incorrect on you assumption that she went through the whole match in Production. The Arb was filed at about 1:35 on the second day of the match and decided that afternoon. I think (not 100% positive which schedule she was on but I believe AM/PM/AM) she only shot about a third of the match before being bumped. Steel1212, read the thread. The rule that allows female competitors to wear the belt below the waist does not apply in Production per Appendix D. It's been mentioned a couple times before. To the couple of guys who keeps quoting the last half of 5.3.2 as reason why the belt can be anywhere. You need to read the whole rule, not just the sentence you think supports your position. 5.3.2 starts off by saying the belt must be worn at the waist ... Period. It then describes how the belt must be worn, either securely fixed or with three belt loops. Good to know. NOW...we know the facts. Thanks again for clarification. I still think that is sucky. She shot extremely well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 5.3.2 starts off by saying the belt must be worn at the waist ... Period. Thanks for your insight Chuck. I'm sure this particular situation was handled properly and professionaly, but can you help me understand where the 'waist' actually is, perhaps using the top or bottom of the belt, and the hip bones as points of reference? I searched this forum and few earlier threads but none were very definitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Interesting how wikipedia defines where the waist is: an inch above the navel. In that case, even the picture in the appendix would have his belt below the waist if an inch above the navel were a strict definition. http://en.wikipedia....ist_measurement Edited October 19, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Interesting how wikipedia defines where the waist is... an inch above the navel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist#Waist_measurement Sounds like *ALL* production shooters should be bumped to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyg00 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Am I the only one that thinks placement of mag pouches and belt location is BS? Who,gives a shi$t about that stuff. I think its a whole lot of BS. She outshot everyone in her category. After she shot all the stages she gets bumped? From the pictures of the other female competitors i have seen she was not alone with odd belt placement. You're are incorrect on you assumption that she went through the whole match in Production. The Arb was filed at about 1:35 on the second day of the match and decided that afternoon. I think (not 100% positive which schedule she was on but I believe AM/PM/AM) she only shot about a third of the match before being bumped. Steel1212, read the thread. The rule that allows female competitors to wear the belt below the waist does not apply in Production per Appendix D. It's been mentioned a couple times before. To the couple of guys who keeps quoting the last half of 5.3.2 as reason why the belt can be anywhere. You need to read the whole rule, not just the sentence you think supports your position. 5.3.2 starts off by saying the belt must be worn at the waist ... Period. It then describes how the belt must be worn, either securely fixed or with three belt loops. Good to know. NOW...we know the facts. Thanks again for clarification. I still think that is sucky. She shot extremely well. Agreed, I'ts sad that someone didn't catch this before she started the match and suggest she quickly run to a Wal-Mart and pick up a pair of shorts. Long way from home and a lot of $ spent to be bumped. Marty A-7424 Edited October 19, 2012 by martyg00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 At the Tulsa Nationals, a Jr. shooter was allowed to Load and Make ready by the CRO. Then he declared the grip tape on her gun to be illegal and bumped her. Pretty much made her first National experience memorable. I guess the MO for the ROs are not to provide unsolicited comment about potential issues. I will say that every RO I have ever questioned about a potential issue was more than helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I think 70 speedlimit on interstate is bogus but Mr. Trooper reminded me that it is not only a good idea but the LAW.... Maybe it was because the placement of her belt "stuck out" when compared to the other lady shooters..... thanks for posting the photos. it looks to me like at least 2-3 others in the picture have the belt in a similar position (related to their own anatomy, not to their clothing), and I remember at least a couple others not pictured that seemed similar to me too. And of course, going by the rulebook picture, the majority of competitors (male and female) appear to be illegal. How do you choose who to punish? It is only an issue if they were shooting production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyg00 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 At the Tulsa Nationals, a Jr. shooter was allowed to Load and Make ready by the CRO. Then he declared the grip tape on her gun to be illegal and bumped her. Pretty much made her first National experience memorable. I guess the MO for the ROs are not to provide unsolicited comment about potential issues. I will say that every RO I have ever questioned about a potential issue was more than helpful. [/quote That is really horseshit and the RO should have been ashamed of himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I think 70 speedlimit on interstate is bogus but Mr. Trooper reminded me that it is not only a good idea but the LAW.... Maybe it was because the placement of her belt "stuck out" when compared to the other lady shooters..... thanks for posting the photos. it looks to me like at least 2-3 others in the picture have the belt in a similar position (related to their own anatomy, not to their clothing), and I remember at least a couple others not pictured that seemed similar to me too. And of course, going by the rulebook picture, the majority of competitors (male and female) appear to be illegal. How do you choose who to punish? It is only an issue if they were shooting production. It appears that for men, 5.2.3 requires the belt to be worn at 'waist level' for all divisions. It also appears to me (tho there may be a ruling otherwise) that the diagram in appendix E3 is mostly intended to show the fore/aft positioning of the gun and equipment behind the hipbone, rather than illustrate what 'waist level' means. Is this diagram the reason people think the exemption for women to wear their belts lower doesn't apply to production? That seems like quite a stretch to me, but perhaps there is some history behind this that I'm not aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildot1 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) I think 70 speedlimit on interstate is bogus but Mr. Trooper reminded me that it is not only a good idea but the LAW.... Maybe it was because the placement of her belt "stuck out" when compared to the other lady shooters.....like a bright red car among a bunch of grey, black and silver ones.....attached is a small comparison of hers as compared to several other lady shooters......whether you know the rules or not it does stick out as different from the others.....if all the other cars are moving along at 85 mph in a 70 not as noticable as as one running 85 when the others are going 70....might be something to consider for future matches. The top 3 left pictures are of the shooter that got bumped.....the others are different shooters. I looked at the pics. What belt?????? Edited October 19, 2012 by mildot1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I looked at the pics. What belt?????? Agreed. But I'll add that it seems funny that there is a rule says attire can be deemed inappropriate but you can shoot a National event in a mini skirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I looked at the pics. What belt?????? Agreed. But I'll add that it seems funny that there is a rule says attire can be deemed inappropriate but you can shoot a National event in a mini skirt. You just can't shoot it *for score* in a mini-skirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I think 70 speedlimit on interstate is bogus but Mr. Trooper reminded me that it is not only a good idea but the LAW.... Maybe it was because the placement of her belt "stuck out" when compared to the other lady shooters..... thanks for posting the photos. it looks to me like at least 2-3 others in the picture have the belt in a similar position (related to their own anatomy, not to their clothing), and I remember at least a couple others not pictured that seemed similar to me too. And of course, going by the rulebook picture, the majority of competitors (male and female) appear to be illegal. How do you choose who to punish? It is only an issue if they were shooting production. It appears that for men, 5.2.3 requires the belt to be worn at 'waist level' for all divisions. It also appears to me (tho there may be a ruling otherwise) that the diagram in appendix E3 is mostly intended to show the fore/aft positioning of the gun and equipment behind the hipbone, rather than illustrate what 'waist level' means. Is this diagram the reason people think the exemption for women to wear their belts lower doesn't apply to production? That seems like quite a stretch to me, but perhaps there is some history behind this that I'm not aware of. Nothing to do with E. if you read appendix D on the chart there is a line the reads 5.2.3.1 applies followed by yes or no. In Production and SS it says no. This means, man or woman, the provisions of 5.2.3 apply in Prod and SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Nothing to do with E. if you read appendix D on the chart there is a line the reads 5.2.3.1 applies followed by yes or no. In Production and SS it says no. This means, man or woman, the provisions of 5.2.3 apply in Prod and SS. Thanks for pointing that out. I somehow blurred over it. Nonetheless..... the whole issue seems somewhat unenforced for people that aren't wearing mini-skirts, and generally fraught with peril. I still don't know where my 'waist' is for uspsa purposes. Of course I don't plan on competing in a miniskirt... ever.... so maybe it's a non-issue for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 It's not really about waist location. It's about shooting with lowered loops, which the competitor in question did, hence the move to Open. Since I made the call, I thought I'd clear up any confusion about it. It's a violation of a division rule, and the consequences are clear. I'm sure a definition of "waist", relevant to USPSA gun belt wear, will be soon forthcoming. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Troy just curious - what rule says the lowered loops is a bump to open? Not doubting you just trying to make myself more familiar with the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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