38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) OK - Lets say someone gets bumped to Open for not having their belt in the right place - why does this happen? 5.2.3 states that the belt must be worn at waist level (different for females) and secured by AT LEAST 3 belt loops. OK so what happens if not? Why does 5.2.5.2 allow a competitor to adjust a holster or mag pouch that is greater than 2" form their body to comply with the rules - but no such rule lets someone adjust their belt to comply? If your answer is "BUMP TO OPEN" here is my rebuttal - the belt position is STILL illegal in open (so are the mag pouches and holster greater than 2") Rules need to have consequences spelled out in the rule book - IMO if you are going to let someone fix a holster that is not in compliance - why not let them fix a belt? Wouldn't shooting for NO SCORE be the proper bump if one continues to violate this rule? If so that should be spelled out. ETA - not make this about a specific match or person Edited October 17, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Shouldn't even start the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok assuming its caught on the first stage. Lets say it wasn't. Now what do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Spell it out. It should addressed before it happens to someone again. They said she understand the rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ok let's forget what happened at LPR - what if a guy is fairly new shooting an area match? What is the solution per the rules? (Trick question) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 5.2.3 states that the belt must be worn at waist level (different for females) and secured by AT LEAST 3 belt loops. The exact quote is; The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. There is a difference. If the RO/CRO/RM decide the belt is secured WITHOUT going thru loops (such as sufficiently velcroed), the loops are a non-issue. As for being bumped to Open, I'd like to know what rule(s) was/were cited for that move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Wouldn't shooting for NO SCORE be the proper bump if one continues to violate this rule? This is the penalty for using a mag larger than 171.25 in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ahh - thanks Remo - I didn't see the "OR" My whole point is why is a competitor allowed to fix one violation but the other has a consequence that is not spelled out? That would be like saying "Shooter cannot break the 180" but not saying what happens if they do. Maybe have rule 1.1.1.1 = "Any violation of rule has the default penalty of shooting for no score unless otherwise specified" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 They might have sent them to Open so as to be able to record their score. There were a few people who did not have belt loops on their pants from what I saw at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I was the on the squad of the shooter that was bumped. There was also a magnet involved in the discussion (even though those aren't illegal right now). The interpretation of "waist level" was definitely a hot little topic. lol. An amazing shooter, nonetheless. Edited October 17, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Ok - LETS scratch that I even said that part. THE QUESTION is - PER the rules - what happens for someone wearing a belt at not waist level? Edited October 17, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Not a belt loop issue. See 5.2.3, 5.2.3.1, and appendix d, #11, (I think), and then decide. Bumped to open for violating production division rules. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 You have to shooer correct he issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Troy - 5.2.3 and 5.2.3.1 don't mention a penalty though - Open bump? Procedural? Procedural per shot? DQ? And here is the BIG kicker Appendix D for Open ALSO states that 5.2.3 applies :-) SO TECHNICALLY it is not legal for open either Not causing trouble just thinking maybe a good place for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 ETA - Also why can under 5.2.5.2 a shooter fix an illegal holster but there isn't the option to fix a belt thats too low? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Spell it out. It should addressed before it happens to someone again. They said she understand the rule? LOL! Where the hell are you guys getting all this news? Guess I'm not in the loop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Again - lets forget the match - and just go to the question - Nobody has yet to point to a rule that says what happens for breaking this rule HAHA "Not in the loop" hahha GET IT lol Edited October 17, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Lmao Names are mentioned in the acceptance speech rule thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 EVERYONE Who cares about L-P-R - I just care about the ISSUE that is why I removed it from my post. Does ANYONE know a rule that states what happens for violating a belt rule? or ANY equipment rule for that matter? Why is it "Bump to Open" just because that is how its always been? Is tehre a rule that says you are bumped to open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 No, I don't . But I suxs, she would have won the ladies production nationals ! Lmao !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvhendrix Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 EVERYONE Who cares about L-P-R - I just care about the ISSUE that is why I removed it from my post. Does ANYONE know a rule that states what happens for violating a belt rule? or ANY equipment rule for that matter? Why is it "Bump to Open" just because that is how its always been? Is tehre a rule that says you are bumped to open? Rule 6.2.5.1 moves you to Open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) But what happens because now technically they don't satisfy Open division requirements? 5.2.3 is required for Open also - same with the 2" rule - you move someone to Open because of that - guess what - open requires 2" or less also Edited October 17, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 But what happens because now technically they don't satisfy Open division requirements? 5.2.3 is required for Open also - same with the 2" rule - you move someone to Open because of that - guess what - open requires 2" or less also Possibly... 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I agree that there is nothing specified about what happens. If you are bumped to Open then you still have to comply with the Open Division rules. I have always felt that the 2" fron the belt is kind of lame anyway. Is it a big advantage if it is 3 1/2 inches instead of 2" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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