Hands relaxed at sides?

[lucky #7]

I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me.

I agree, I see no advantage.

Then why do you do it?

Because RO's hit the start button. RO's have the right and obligation to correct the shooter's start position. If the competitor is not in a start position that is to the RO's satisfaction they shouldn't start them. Just sayin'

Edited October 17, 2012 by lucky #7

[justaute]

Is this starting posture an advantage? Did he beat Blake Miguez with that posture? Not even close. That's not really the issue here. If we don't want arms/hands relaxed on the sides, then get rid of it. Otherwise, let's enforce it -- and, yes, there should be some leeway given people's physique, holster/pouch location, and anything else within reason. I'm all about "gaming", but let's do it within the bounds of rules.

http://www.britinusa.net/livelinks_2012usnatslp/16Jeff.Morgan.mov?width=640&height=360

Edited October 17, 2012 by justaute

[ima45dv8]

I've refused to start people a few times because the WSB required that they be standing with arms narurally relaxed at sides, and they weren't.

On a couple of occasions I've had them tell me, "This IS naturally relaxed at sides for me!'

My usual response..."Well, if I ever see you standing in line at the grocery store like that, I'll owe you an apolgy. Until then, get it right."

[Chills1994]

I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me.

They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it was advantageous.

And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself.

That's it! We have to make a rule against confidence!

Yeah, I'd feel confident too, that by breaking one "rule" I could buffalo or bully the RO in calling my "perfect double" a "TWO ALPHA!"

I agree with the issue of this rule enforcement. It's not being enforced very well in some situations.

I just didn't like the way you portrayed it as a "thought crime" rather than a rules infraction.

The day when that kind of thought crime becomes outlawed is the day USPSA will no longer be freestyle shooting.

You lost me there with the thought crime comment.

I'm saying if I was a shooter and was pushing the envelope with my start stance I would be thinking "Ha! ha! Got one over on the RO. I wonder if I can get him to call a charlie an alpha instead??? Hee! hee!"

[PistoleroJesse]

I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me.

They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it was advantageous.

And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself.

That's it! We have to make a rule against confidence!

Yeah, I'd feel confident too, that by breaking one "rule" I could buffalo or bully the RO in calling my "perfect double" a "TWO ALPHA!"

I agree with the issue of this rule enforcement. It's not being enforced very well in some situations.

I just didn't like the way you portrayed it as a "thought crime" rather than a rules infraction.

The day when that kind of thought crime becomes outlawed is the day USPSA will no longer be freestyle shooting.

You lost me there with the thought crime comment.

I'm saying if I was a shooter and was pushing the envelope with my start stance I would be thinking "Ha! ha! Got one over on the RO. I wonder if I can get him to call a charlie an alpha instead??? Hee! hee!"

"And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself."

There is no crime in thinking you have an advantage... even if you don't.

The issue here should be Letter of the Rule and the justification for changing it, not the intention of any given shooter.

[BritinUSA]

The other issue here is that some RO's were starting both Tori and Jessie in this position while other RO's would not start one or both if the arms were not more vertical.

Whatever the final ruling is, it must be applied evenly on all stages to all competitors.

I do not recall any problems from Limited/Production Nationals.

The change in policing this position seemed to occur during the Open/L10 match, but only on some stages. Put simply there was a lack of uniformity then needs to be addressed during the off-season so that all competitors and RO's understand exactly what is required.

The phrase 'arms hanging naturally at sides' or 'hands naturally at sides' (from the Nationals WSB's) is not specific enough, different builds will affect how people's arms and hands are in relation to the rest of their body.

[Flexmoney]

The other issue here is that some RO's were starting both Tori and Jessie in this position while other RO's would not start one or both if the arms were not more vertical.

Whatever the final ruling is, it must be applied evenly on all stages to all competitors.

I do not recall any problems from Limited/Production Nationals.

The change in policing this position seemed to occur during the Open/L10 match, but only on some stages. Put simply there was a lack of uniformity then needs to be addressed during the off-season so that all competitors and RO's understand exactly what is required.

The phrase 'arms hanging naturally at sides' or 'hands naturally at sides' (from the Nationals WSB's) is not specific enough, different builds will affect how people's arms and hands are in relation to the rest of their body.

Good point. However, it was consistent for every competitor on the respective stages. (so everybody still started each stage in the same manner as their competitors)

[rishii]

Flexmoney

The stage you worked, the hand position was very consistent

And what I noticed at least for my squad, the start positions for all the stages were very consistent from the 1st shooter to the last

If it was specificity worded heels on marks, hand above shoulders, looking at the door, and you weren't, you were told to correct it.

Other stages that weren't so specific, we were allowed a bit of freedom

And thank you for working the match

[BritinUSA]

The other issue here is that some RO's were starting both Tori and Jessie in this position while other RO's would not start one or both if the arms were not more vertical.

Whatever the final ruling is, it must be applied evenly on all stages to all competitors.

I do not recall any problems from Limited/Production Nationals.

The change in policing this position seemed to occur during the Open/L10 match, but only on some stages. Put simply there was a lack of uniformity then needs to be addressed during the off-season so that all competitors and RO's understand exactly what is required.

The phrase 'arms hanging naturally at sides' or 'hands naturally at sides' (from the Nationals WSB's) is not specific enough, different builds will affect how people's arms and hands are in relation to the rest of their body.

Good point. However, it was consistent for every competitor on the respective stages. (so everybody still started each stage in the same manner as their competitors)

This is the start position in question, right ?

On this stage the RO refused to start Tori until her arms were straight downward and yet Jessie was started in the position shown above... Or are we talking about two different stances ?

[Flexmoney]

Flexmoney

The stage you worked, the hand position was very consistent

And what I noticed at least for my squad, the start positions for all the stages were very consistent from the 1st shooter to the last

If it was specificity worded heels on marks, hand above shoulders, looking at the door, and you weren't, you were told to correct it.

Other stages that weren't so specific, we were allowed a bit of freedom

And thank you for working the match

Yeah. I shot the Production match, and I had my start position corrected a couple of times. How I would characterize it is that each CRO ran their start position how they saw fit...but consistently within their stage.

[Flexmoney]

On this stage the RO refused to start xyz until her arms were straight downward and yet zyx was started in the position shown above... Or are we talking about two different stances ?

If you are suggesting that the RO there played favorites, then you are out of your freakin mind. He is about as black and white on the rules as you are going to get.

He did, however, run ~ 72 squads of shooters that week. I can't speak for the first match, but I know "a very large portion" of shooters had their start positions corrected [on that stage] during the Open/L-10 match.

[BritinUSA]

I never said anything about ROs playing favorites. You made the statement that it was consistent and I don't think it was on every stage.

[Flexmoney]

I never said anything about ROs playing favorites. You made the statement that it was consistent and I don't think it was on every stage.

OK. Sorry if I read you wrong.

From what I saw, there was ample attempt to keep it consistent. In fact, I'd say the start positions were tight enough on many stages to make it a pain (for shooters and RO's).

[BritinUSA]

Agreed.

[Mo Hepworth]

[The phrase 'arms hanging naturally at sides' or 'hands naturally at sides' (from the Nationals WSB's) is not specific enough, different builds will affect how people's arms and hands are in relation to the rest of their body.

Good point. However, it was consistent for every competitor on the respective stages. (so everybody still started each stage in the same manner as their competitors)

This is the start position in question, right ?

On this stage the RO refused to start Tori until her arms were straight downward and yet Jessie was started in the position shown above... Or are we talking about two different stances ?

Odd...in my experience...that would be slower to start. her hand has to come back a bit. I was always told hands relaxed at sides was generally faster from the holster..."relaxed" as in very little tension. Too bad all this crap is coming up, but I do believe most RO's are doing there best in most cases. I would say they are probably pretty freaking tired at a large match like this...and sometimes they make mistakes. In a perfect world things would be perfect....and then there is planet earth.

[CHA-LEE]

I ROed on stage 13 for the Open/L10 match and experienced this situation first hand. The challenge with my stage was that the start position defined where the shooters toes had to be but nothing on where they should be facing. In this situation if the shooters toes were pointing at the side berm, but they were twisted at the waist looking down range there is NO WAY their hands will be hanging relaxed at the sides of their hips the same way as facing the same way as their toes were pointing. For my stage I determined the "Hands at sides" validity when compared to the angle of the shoulders. Some shooters who were very twisted around may look like their up range hand was excessively biased forward but if you looked at the angle of their shoulders when compared to their arms it was actually a valid "Relaxed" arm position.

I only had to call one shooter out on not being "Relaxed" at sides when their left arm was bent at a 45 degree angle and their hand was half way to the gun. Their right arm was also bent in a favorable direction to the gun. I asked them to reset their hands to relaxed at sides and they complied, then I started their stage run.

I caught quite a bit of flack for doing this for one shooter but not another from multiple people. I tried to explain my stance on the situation to these people but nobody was happy with my reasoning around the subject. In the end I really could care less what the "Peanut Gallery" thought of the situation. I did my job ROing the stage to the best of my ability and made the call that I felt was appropriate for the situation at hand. As an RO I feel like its really crappy for a few shooters to push the limits by purposefully trying to cheat the start position. If I was the RM in this situation I would have DQed the "offending" shooter(s) for their repeated attempts in trying to cheat. That is unsportsmanlike conduct and they should be punished as such, regardless of who they are.

Edited October 22, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[motosapiens]

I caught quite a bit of flack for doing this for one shooter but not another from multiple people. I tried to explain my stance on the situation to these people but nobody was happy with my reasoning around the subject. In the end I really could care less what the "Peanut Gallery" thought of the situation. I did my job ROing the stage to the best of my ability and made the call that I felt was appropriate for the situation at hand. As an RO I feel like its really crappy for a few shooters to push the limits by purposefully trying to cheat the start position. If I was the RM in this situation I would have DQed the "offending" shooter(s) for their repeated attempts in trying to cheat. That is unsportsmanlike conduct and they should be punished as such, regardless of who they are.

Interesting post. what do you suppose the problem was? was the start position just not clear enough in the wsb? I'm not terribly experienced, but I worked stage 15 for LPR. Our start position was sitting in a chair, hand holding sides of menu, menu touching white line on table. I don't remember all the exact wording of the wsb, but we essentially interpreted it (and explained it to each squad) that it meant knees in front of chair (not off to sides), feet within the width of the chair, butt cheeks on the chair (not perched right on the edge, but also not back against back of chair, somewhere in between), and we had a total of zero problems, complaints, or issues with the shooters. We had to correct about 25-30% of them, but that was no big deal.

That makes it seems to me like the whole idea of 'arms relaxed at sides' is not sufficiently well-defined (or well-enforced). When you have props (like a menu), it's very clear what your hands have to do, but 'relaxed at sides' is open to quite a bit of interpretation. Personally, I think i would give people pretty wide latitude if the starting position is not specifically and clearly stated. I think the important thing (especially at a major even) is to be consistent.

Perhaps a clarification in the wsb or a better definition of 'relaxed at sides' would help.

Wrists in near proximity to the hip joint? That's about where my 'relaxed at sides' position is. In the absence of better definitions, if I RO a stage in the future that starts with arms at sides, that's probably what i'll suggest that we use as an example in our wsb and briefing and give a good example. I predict we will have absolutely zero problems with shooters if it's clearly explained and consistent.

[BritinUSA]

Why not just ditch 'arms relaxed at sides' or 'hands naturally at sides' and have the default hand position be 'standing erect with wrists above respective shoulders' like they do in Steel Challenge. This gets rid of the problem of people getting hands/arms tangled up in magazines and keeps their hands well away from the gun. It works in Steel Challenge...

[bobert1]

I am in the camp that believes feet position does NOT change the requirement of hands hanging naturally at sides.

[E K]

Rules are made to be broken... or in competitive shooting "bent"... The human factor again, some RO's call it and some don't... It will never change.

IMO the issue is RO's don't consistently enforce it. Some guys are allowed to game it while they force others to follow the rule thus granting an advantage to some.

[CHA-LEE]

The problems with defining/enforcing hands relaxed at sides usually happens when the actual start position has the shooter looking or biasing to a target or first shooting position that is not directly down range. This can easily be resolved by mandating that the hands be touching X's or something like that. Stage 13 would have been far more consistent if there were X's on either sides of the outer walls and the start position in the WSB was "Standing outside shooting area with hands touching either set of X's". That way all the RO's would have to ensure is that their hands were touching and they were standing anywhere outside of the shooting area. There is nothing left to interpretation with a start position like that.

[ysued]

I think part of the issue is that the phrases "hands relaxed at sides" and "hands above shoulders" have a lot of slack in them and we, as shooters and stage designers, have let that slack be played in the name of "freestyle". One way to stop this would be better, more specific starting positions in the stage descriptions.

Perfect response, I couldn't have said it better myself!!

Y

[Dan Hefta]

Rules are made to be broken... or in competitive shooting "bent"... The human factor again, some RO's call it and some don't... It will never change.

IMO the issue is RO's don't consistently enforce it. Some guys are allowed to game it while they force others to follow the rule thus granting an advantage to some.

That is exactly my point... You can take 5 RO's and you may get 5 different calls or interpretations of the rules at any given time... Thus "The Human Factor". Some RO's will make the call and some don't... As long as this sport is all volunteer it will never change... it is what it is.

[motosapiens]

Rules are made to be broken... or in competitive shooting "bent"... The human factor again, some RO's call it and some don't... It will never change.

IMO the issue is RO's don't consistently enforce it. Some guys are allowed to game it while they force others to follow the rule thus granting an advantage to some.

That is exactly my point... You can take 5 RO's and you may get 5 different calls or interpretations of the rules at any given time... Thus "The Human Factor". Some RO's will make the call and some don't... As long as this sport is all volunteer it will never change... it is what it is.

I don't think that's really a bad thing as long as an RO calls it consistently for a given stage. The crew I worked with at nationals spent some time going over the wsb and the start position and agreeing on exactly how it was going to be enforced so all 4 did it the same way. I assume other crews did the same thing when they previewed their stages and made last-minute adjustments to the wsb the day before the match started.

Of course in a match with embedded RO's, there is more potential for lack of consistency, but that is something that can and should be addressed by the match director and stage designers. The more specifically the start position is described, the less wiggle-room and the more consistently it will be enforced.

[Nik Habicht]

From the stage designer's perspective -- when I care about hand position at the start, I'll write it out very specifically. (Palms flat on XXs; strong hand on door knob, weak hand on shooter's opposite ear) When I don't specify something like that I really don't care. Every competitor has the same opportunity to decide how they want to hold their hands at the start....