Son Of The Griz Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 At a recent match we faced a TON of arrays placed at or near the limit lines of the 180... and I nearly got served with a DQ because of an UNplanned standing reload toward a target that was pretty much at the limit. Fortunately, it was juuuuuuust, inside and all I earned for my near-transgression was a bit of "advice." I thought it odd the new shooters made it through fine but watched many far more experienced shooters getting caught up. Some of it was poor stage layout, but ultimately it was up to me to realize my body and muzzle position when I forced myself into a tight spot. Moral of that day's story... Watch out for 180 traps (unintentional they may be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyD Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Yep, that sort of thing got me my first and only DQ! Planning on turning my upper torso away from the 180 is in my stage planning with my reloads & shot counts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Yep, that sort of thing got me my first and only DQ! Planning on turning my upper torso away from the 180 is in my stage planning with my reloads & shot counts! What usually happens in these situations with 180 traps is the plan goes south and your running on back up and forget where your at. Or your running flat out and you have a gun issue or something and blow past your spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremo Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Bad stage design imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you break the 180, it's your fault, not the stage designer. Thats bad stage execution imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 It would be interesting to have a recall process on bad stage designs. As we do with other dangerous products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you break the 180, it's your fault, not the stage designer. Thats bad stage execution imo. If you are injured as a result of a poorly designed product is that the fault of the consumer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There is certainly such a thing as a bad stage, but I'm not fat because of McDonald's. When we design stages, we have to consider the fact that not all shooters are experienced and that some of those who consider themselves experienced, aren't. Considerations must be made for the lowest common denominator. I have seen stages set up with shooting positions done in a certain way for the sole purpose of making it difficult. Throwing a 45 yard target with hard cover and no shoots makes a stage hard, but not necessarily good. Same thing for 180 traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you break the 180, it's your fault, not the stage designer. Thats bad stage execution imo. I disagree. First of all the stage should never be designed to be on the edge of possible accidents at the worst or a DQ at the least. The stage should be vetted by the folks setting it up and modified to make it competitive but not a DQ trap. If the set up crew doesn't take action the RO damn sure should. By your way of thinking I could set up a stage that would cause half the shooters to be DQ'd and then blame them instead of looking at my poor stage design. Stages should be competitive... not a trap where shooters get sent home. Stages with traps are a great way to lose new shooters and even some older ones also. Pat USPSA certified RO and CRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAB33 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you break the 180, it's your fault, not the stage designer. Thats bad stage execution imo. Plus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There is certainly such a thing as a bad stage, but I'm not fat because of McDonald's. When we design stages, we have to consider the fact that not all shooters are experienced and that some of those who consider themselves experienced, aren't. Considerations must be made for the lowest common denominator. I have seen stages set up with shooting positions done in a certain way for the sole purpose of making it difficult. Throwing a 45 yard target with hard cover and no shoots makes a stage hard, but not necessarily good. Same thing for 180 traps. If your designing a stage to have a 180 trap then you need to quit the sport. With that said 180 targets end up being the result of the stage designer not wanting you to shoot a target until your at a certain spot which leads it to usually being on the line. I don't see how that makes it a bad stage. If you blow past the shooting position, YOU blew past it, reverse yourself and do what you need to do, don't blame the stage because you didn't have muzzle awareness. RO Traps are a different story. The RO is there to keep things safe and needs to be near you. If the stage gets the RO stuck in a bad spot then the stage needs to be adjusted and in that situation I do believe the first person to RO that stage would figure that out pretty quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you break the 180, it's your fault, not the stage designer. Thats bad stage execution imo. I disagree. First of all the stage should never be designed to be on the edge of possible accidents at the worst or a DQ at the least. The stage should be vetted by the folks setting it up and modified to make it competitive but not a DQ trap. If the set up crew doesn't take action the RO damn sure should. By your way of thinking I could set up a stage that would cause half the shooters to be DQ'd and then blame them instead of looking at my poor stage design. Stages should be competitive... not a trap where shooters get sent home. Stages with traps are a great way to lose new shooters and even some older ones also. Pat USPSA certified RO and CRO. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremo Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Stages should be competitive... not a trap where shooters get sent home. Spot on! Can't think of any good arguments for putting targets on or close to the 180. Close to 180 for a right hand shooter can be directly on for a left hand shooter. It's just plain stupid design that intentionally puts the shooter in a bad spot with no margins for safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAB33 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Maybe I don't get it, explain to me what makes it a 180 "trap"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Maybe I don't get it, explain to me what makes it a 180 "trap"? Remember the days when energetic cops would hide behind barriers and give speeding tickets for 3-5MPH over the speed limit and the city had a Mayor's court--Well that is probably the definition of a real trap. I don't believe any stage designer goes out with the thought "Im going to place the target in such a manner as to trap a competitior into breaking the 180". I do believe that some folks think it is OK to put targets 1 inch off the 180 and shame on the shooter if he screws up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Maybe I don't get it, explain to me what makes it a 180 "trap"? I dont think I ever seen a 180 trap. a 180 trap would be a tgt that could only be engaged while breaking the 180. all others please refer to steel 1212 post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Maybe I don't get it, explain to me what makes it a 180 "trap"? I dont think I ever seen a 180 trap. a 180 trap would be a tgt that could only be engaged while breaking the 180. all others please refer to steel 1212 post Not really any such thing as a speed trap either but if you are riding the break down a hill with a posted 25 mph limit and radar gets you at 29.... Edited October 10, 2012 by toothguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Maybe I don't get it, explain to me what makes it a 180 "trap"? I dont think I ever seen a 180 trap. a 180 trap would be a tgt that could only be engaged while breaking the 180. all others please refer to steel 1212 post Not really any such thing as a speed trap either but if you are riding the break down a hill with a posted 25 mph limit and radar gets you at 29.... Then you were exceeding the posted speed limit and breaking the law. It's not the fault of the person who set the speed limit you got a ticket, it's yours. You were speeding. Who cares if the cop was hiding, you broke the law. The same goes for stage designers. YOU broke the 180, not them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Next I suppose it'll be GM's fault the Corvette goes 100mph and you went to jail for testing it out huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Steel1212 nails this. I agree with him completely. RO traps = bad stage design. Every target close to the 180? I'd shoot the stage, but wonder what asshat allowed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Maybe I don't get it, explain to me what makes it a 180 "trap"? I dont think I ever seen a 180 trap. a 180 trap would be a tgt that could only be engaged while breaking the 180. all others please refer to steel 1212 post Not really any such thing as a speed trap either but if you are riding the break down a hill with a posted 25 mph limit and radar gets you at 29.... Then you were exceeding the posted speed limit and breaking the law. It's not the fault of the person who set the speed limit you got a ticket, it's yours. You were speeding. Who cares if the cop was hiding, you broke the law. The same goes for stage designers. YOU broke the 180, not them. My point exactly. Breaking the 180 is a safety issue that can not be compromised. If the stage design has a target placed from the shooting box at 175 and clearly many experienced shooter are having issues I don't see the reason to push it. It's been a while since I shot at Mill Creek but I loved to watch J.D. and Big John set up stages. J.D. would show up with a plan but would change it as he surveyed the targets. The stages were creative and challenging but planned with the rules in mind, I think he wrote many of them. It seemed to me he used a good blend of Knowledge of the rules, common sense and fairness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Next I suppose it'll be GM's fault the Corvette goes 100mph and you went to jail for testing it out huh? No but it was GM's fault when they made the Corvair, read "Unsafe At Any Speed" by Ralph Nader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivers_AR Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There is one stage that I ask each time where is the 180, watched ROs shooting the match argue where is the 180. My $0.02 worth is that you want to gear the stage so that C/D shooters can safely do the stage and that A/GM don't outfox themselves going fast and end up getting a DQ because its close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I love this topic. I have lost count of how many times I have attended a match and someone on my squad is rehearsing their stage plan and stops somewhere in the stage and proceeds to ask everyone if X target is beyond the 180 from where they are standing. I always tell shooters that this is a "Big Kid Game" and you are always offered the opportunity to make the wrong decision. Make your stage plan decision wisely or you will send yourself home for breaking safety rules. When a shooter asks me if a target is close to or beyond the 180 from a given shooting position I ask them why they would even consider shooting the target from that location if they are not even sure if its breaking the 180 or not. If you can't figure out if the shot is safe or not when you are taking your time breaking down the stage you sure as hell are not going to know in the middle of the stage run after the buzzer goes off. The only stages that I frown upon are ones that promote flirting with the 180 in order to maximize the stage run strategy. A good example would be a retreating stage where you can engage targets right on or beyond the 180 as you are retreating. These stages actually reward shooters for performing increasingly risky target engagement angles. Sure these kind of stages are legal but all they do is create unneeded risk for shooters and spectators. You could produce the same type of shooting challenge by placing targets slightly behind vision barriers so they can't be engaged unless you are well within the 180. Poor stage design can promote close 180 situations or 180 breaks. But in the end its all about being muzzle aware and keeping your gun pointed down range within the 180 limits at all times, regardless of how jacked up your stage run gets. As a whole I think that USPSA shooters have amazing muzzle awareness and control. I have seen my fare share of shooters take serious falls or tumbles during stage runs AND maintain awesome muzzle control through the whole ordeal while keeping the gun pointed straight down range and their finger off the trigger. Compare that to a public range, muzzle awareness??? What is that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyD Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I have seen my fare share of shooters take serious falls or tumbles during stage runs AND maintain awesome muzzle control through the whole ordeal while keeping the gun pointed straight down range and their finger off the trigger. Compare that to a public range, muzzle awareness??? What is that??? Athleticism a plenty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now