180 Traps and Generous ROs

[lawboy]

I love this topic. I have lost count of how many times I have attended a match and someone on my squad is rehearsing their stage plan and stops somewhere in the stage and proceeds to ask everyone if X target is beyond the 180 from where they are standing. I always tell shooters that this is a "Big Kid Game" and you are always offered the opportunity to make the wrong decision. Make your stage plan decision wisely or you will send yourself home for breaking safety rules. When a shooter asks me if a target is close to or beyond the 180 from a given shooting position I ask them why they would even consider shooting the target from that location if they are not even sure if its breaking the 180 or not. If you can't figure out if the shot is safe or not when you are taking your time breaking down the stage you sure as hell are not going to know in the middle of the stage run after the buzzer goes off.

I disagree. Often times people are shooting at ranges they are not familiar with and thus do not know what 180 degrees of the bay is considered to be the FORWARD 180. The layout of the shooting area in the bay can sometimes confuse this, as can the layout of the berms. I have been to many matches where what the officials running the match explained to competitors to be the forward 180 WAS NOT what I intuitively considered to be the forward 180, and I have been to several where I flat out could not tell definitively where the 180 line was without being told by the RO. This includes AREA 2 last year. Many clubs have bays that are not rectangular in shape and this is often the source of this issue.

[laz2011]

When you break the 180 it is on you.But i realy hate 180 traps it shows bad stage design.The stage should be fun that challenges you.That is what it is all about.

[latech15]

There is certainly such a thing as a bad stage, but I'm not fat because of McDonald's.

When we design stages, we have to consider the fact that not all shooters are experienced and that some of those who consider themselves experienced, aren't. Considerations must be made for the lowest common denominator.

I have seen stages set up with shooting positions done in a certain way for the sole purpose of making it difficult. Throwing a 45 yard target with hard cover and no shoots makes a stage hard, but not necessarily good. Same thing for 180 traps.

If your designing a stage to have a 180 trap then you need to quit the sport. With that said 180 targets end up being the result of the stage designer not wanting you to shoot a target until your at a certain spot which leads it to usually being on the line. I don't see how that makes it a bad stage. If you blow past the shooting position, YOU blew past it, reverse yourself and do what you need to do, don't blame the stage because you didn't have muzzle awareness.

RO Traps are a different story. The RO is there to keep things safe and needs to be near you. If the stage gets the RO stuck in a bad spot then the stage needs to be adjusted and in that situation I do believe the first person to RO that stage would figure that out pretty quick.

I agree that they shouldn't be doing it if they are doing it specifically to be a trap. The issue is that a lot of the folks that are setting us courses, around here anyway, seem to only know that they want to set up at 32 round course. They do the rest of the setup and planning on the fly with the walls and props in their hands on the morning of the match. They don't put in the time and effort into trying to come up with a course that is safe, fun, and relatively non handicapping for SS or revo shooters. They just throw a couple of walls up and then throw targets in the gaps.

I used to design stages and I used Sketchup and spent an hour or two on each one looking at the different angles and such. It takes time to create a course that can be shot in multiple ways. Jeremy Jouette is a mad scientist and has really got the process down.

[Dan Hefta]

If you break the 180, it's your fault, not the stage designer. Thats bad stage execution imo.

I agree completely with this statement... I don't believe in the term "180 trap"... Part of our sport is breaking down a COF and shooting it as fast and safely as possible... if you break the 180... you go home... no crying, just go home.

I think it's funny when shooters cry 180 trap... Everyone else shot the stage without breaking it!

[Bunchies95]

I love this topic. I have lost count of how many times I have attended a match and someone on my squad is rehearsing their stage plan and stops somewhere in the stage and proceeds to ask everyone if X target is beyond the 180 from where they are standing. I always tell shooters that this is a "Big Kid Game" and you are always offered the opportunity to make the wrong decision. Make your stage plan decision wisely or you will send yourself home for breaking safety rules. When a shooter asks me if a target is close to or beyond the 180 from a given shooting position I ask them why they would even consider shooting the target from that location if they are not even sure if its breaking the 180 or not. If you can't figure out if the shot is safe or not when you are taking your time breaking down the stage you sure as hell are not going to know in the middle of the stage run after the buzzer goes off.

I disagree. Often times people are shooting at ranges they are not familiar with and thus do not know what 180 degrees of the bay is considered to be the FORWARD 180. The layout of the shooting area in the bay can sometimes confuse this, as can the layout of the berms. I have been to many matches where what the officials running the match explained to competitors to be the forward 180 WAS NOT what I intuitively considered to be the forward 180, and I have been to several where I flat out could not tell definitively where the 180 line was without being told by the RO. This includes AREA 2 last year. Many clubs have bays that are not rectangular in shape and this is often the source of this issue.

There is no such thing as a 180. Read the rules again....

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

It is defined as going past 90 degrees to the backstop. If you are looking to the side berms for reference, THAN YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE WRONG PLACE!! I am sorry that not having square bays causes a problem for you. Look at the backstop and pretend the side berms don't exist.

Stages that have every target right on the 90 degree median intercept line do suck. It is up to the shooter to keep control of the muzzle, but shouldn't have to worry about it on every single target. When I design stages where I want the shooter to be moving quickly, I make the target disappear around 80 degrees. This is because I found most shooters will still be tracking the target a bit after the second shot when moving forward at a good pace. Anything closer to the 90, I make it a forced static shooting position (start or end of stage). Bad stage designs let every shooter flirt with a DQ. Good ones softens the edge so only those pushing too hard get DQ'd.

[Panic Flinch]

As the designer of the stage I'm the COP. As the law enforcement and safety officer I know it's very dangerous to go 181 miles an hour. So I set the speed limit at 180 and watch people go to jail. This can be very frustrating especially when the Law says you were going 181 mph and the competitor says no I wasn't I was going 179 mph. Have people been sent home for doing 179 mph? Probably... And that's just plain bad for the sport!

HOWEVER, if you have opportunities in the stage to drive 80 mph and it was not necessary to go 180... and you go 181...then you own it. If there are areas of the stage where I can ONLY drive 180 mph...and 181 is a lock up...well...you get the picture.

As s designer... I would never put a target past 170°. That way if the line is broken I would be SURE about it...as would the shooter, and there would be no arguments/hard feelings to be had. The competitor might actually come back to shoot again another day....

.02

G

[toothguy]

As the designer of the stage I'm the COP. As the law enforcement and safety officer I know it's very dangerous to go 181 miles an hour. So I set the speed limit at 180 and watch people go to jail. This can be very frustrating especially when the Law says you were going 181 mph and the competitor says no I wasn't I was going 179 mph. Have people been sent home for doing 179 mph? Probably... And that's just plain bad for the sport!

HOWEVER, if you have opportunities in the stage to drive 80 mph and it was not necessary to go 180... and you go 181...then you own it. If there are areas of the stage where I can ONLY drive 180 mph...and 181 is a lock up...well...you get the picture.

As s designer... I would never put a target past 170°. That way if the line is broken I would be SURE about it...as would the shooter, and there would be no arguments/hard feelings to be had. The competitor might actually come back to shoot again another day....

.02

G

I think that's really good. I think the majority of the shooters are there to be safe and just have a good time. Now more than ever it is so expensive to shoot. I just don't want someone to be discouraged from coming back.

[lawboy]

I love this topic. I have lost count of how many times I have attended a match and someone on my squad is rehearsing their stage plan and stops somewhere in the stage and proceeds to ask everyone if X target is beyond the 180 from where they are standing. I always tell shooters that this is a "Big Kid Game" and you are always offered the opportunity to make the wrong decision. Make your stage plan decision wisely or you will send yourself home for breaking safety rules. When a shooter asks me if a target is close to or beyond the 180 from a given shooting position I ask them why they would even consider shooting the target from that location if they are not even sure if its breaking the 180 or not. If you can't figure out if the shot is safe or not when you are taking your time breaking down the stage you sure as hell are not going to know in the middle of the stage run after the buzzer goes off.

I disagree. Often times people are shooting at ranges they are not familiar with and thus do not know what 180 degrees of the bay is considered to be the FORWARD 180. The layout of the shooting area in the bay can sometimes confuse this, as can the layout of the berms. I have been to many matches where what the officials running the match explained to competitors to be the forward 180 WAS NOT what I intuitively considered to be the forward 180, and I have been to several where I flat out could not tell definitively where the 180 line was without being told by the RO. This includes AREA 2 last year. Many clubs have bays that are not rectangular in shape and this is often the source of this issue.

There is no such thing as a 180. Read the rules again....

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

It is defined as going past 90 degrees to the backstop. If you are looking to the side berms for reference, THAN YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE WRONG PLACE!! I am sorry that not having square bays causes a problem for you. Look at the backstop and pretend the side berms don't exist.

Stages that have every target right on the 90 degree median intercept line do suck. It is up to the shooter to keep control of the muzzle, but shouldn't have to worry about it on every single target. When I design stages where I want the shooter to be moving quickly, I make the target disappear around 80 degrees. This is because I found most shooters will still be tracking the target a bit after the second shot when moving forward at a good pace. Anything closer to the 90, I make it a forced static shooting position (start or end of stage). Bad stage designs let every shooter flirt with a DQ. Good ones softens the edge so only those pushing too hard get DQ'd.

True, there is no 180 rule. But I have been to many matches where the match staff have predecided and even put out markers for where the DQ line is. And more than once, that was not 90 degrees to the backstop by their own definition and warning to shooters. I have also seen bays where you would be hard pressed to definitively state which berm was the "backstop because the berms are L shaped and depending on layout, RO opinion, and where the shooter is located, the "backstop" can be one of several berms.

Edited October 22, 2012 by lawboy

[Panic Flinch]

Gotcha...90 degrees left...90 degrees right... But not 180. Ummm ok.

[BobS761]

I got my first DQ because I blew past a shooting position and broke 180 while backtracking and reloading. My third match. It wasn't a trap but it was a huge learning experience! I facing 45 degrees left and it doesn't take much "flip" while dropping a mag to break 180. Stage design was great, my experience level not so much. This was in June, and sadly I haven't shot since. Not mad about the DQ, just broke my shoulder. Gonna try again Saturday! But dang it, I really wanted to get classified this summer.

B

[toothguy]

I got my first DQ because I blew past a shooting position and broke 180 while backtracking and reloading. My third match. It wasn't a trap but it was a huge learning experience! I facing 45 degrees left and it doesn't take much "flip" while dropping a mag to break 180. Stage design was great, my experience level not so much. This was in June, and sadly I haven't shot since. Not mad about the DQ, just broke my shoulder. Gonna try again Saturday! But dang it, I really wanted to get classified this summer.

B

Glad your comming back we need everyone. Personally I think the DQ should have been enough I think they stepped over the line when they broke your shoulder.

[BobS761]

I got my first DQ because I blew past a shooting position and broke 180 while backtracking and reloading. My third match. It wasn't a trap but it was a huge learning experience! I facing 45 degrees left and it doesn't take much "flip" while dropping a mag to break 180. Stage design was great, my experience level not so much. This was in June, and sadly I haven't shot since. Not mad about the DQ, just broke my shoulder. Gonna try again Saturday! But dang it, I really wanted to get classified this summer.

B

Glad your comming back we need everyone. Personally I think the DQ should have been enough I think they stepped over the line when they broke your shoulder.

Yeah, it gets pretty rough in Kentucky! But really I broke my shoulder because I have a 21 year old brain stuck in a 51 year old body, and teenage sons I think I can keep up with! I hope I never ever, EVER, have another shoulder injury!!

[austex]

Read the rules again....

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

It is defined as going past 90 degrees to the backstop. If you are looking to the side berms for reference, THAN YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE WRONG PLACE!! I am sorry that not having square bays causes a problem for you. Look at the backstop and pretend the side berms don't exist.

The rule defines it as 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, not 90 degrees to the backstop. I don't know what a "median intercept" would be unless it's the line that runs uprange/downrange between the side berms and is equidistant to the side berms. The analogy is the median of a trapezoid. The critical plane is thus independent of the angle the backstop forms with the sideberms. If the plane were defined to be parallel to the backstop, then a stage with backstop forming a 45 degree angle with one side berm and a 135 degree angle with the other side berm would allow pointing a gun in a direction toward the crowd and possibly out of the bay.