180 in a safety area

[Sarge]

Can you break the 180 in a safety area? I say you can but can't really find what I'm looking for in the book.

There are often no backstops, no bays or berms, or markings other than "safety Area".

[PKT1106]

I was always under the impression that the gun must remain over the table or at least pointed in a direction over the table if you are practicing draws.

[Skydiver]

2.4 Safety Areas

The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs. Safety Areas should include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

As far as I know there is no penalty for pointing beyond that safe direction, but the people walking by may not be happy with somebody in the safety area practicing draws and pointing at them.

[Skydiver]

It was just the next paragaph down:

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

[Poppa Bear]

Yes you can as long as you do not violate 2.4.1. The big difference between the safety area and the stage area is that ANY violation of the 180 on a stage is a DQ. In the safety area you can break it in several different ways WITHOUT creating a safety problem. The most common one I see is the gun in a rug or case so that the muzzle is pointing off to the side or even partially to the rear as the person is preparing to gun up.

[Sin-ster]

Yes you can as long as you do not violate 2.4.1. The big difference between the safety area and the stage area is that ANY violation of the 180 on a stage is a DQ. In the safety area you can break it in several different ways WITHOUT creating a safety problem. The most common one I see is the gun in a rug or case so that the muzzle is pointing off to the side or even partially to the rear as the person is preparing to gun up.

That bugs the crap out of me, so I do the "gun rug hand shuffle" to make sure it doesn't happen when I bag or gear up.

Probably looks like I'm playing 3 Card Monte with my pistol, but hey-- whatever it takes.

[Chris Keen]

This is another good question Kevin. IMO this is another area of the rules that needs to be better defined.

Perhaps out of pure sarcasm, possibly just out of curiosity, but definitely to make a point I've asked a particular RM on numerous occasions ...... 1. Can you break the 180 @ a safe area? 2. Can you sweep yourself @ a safe area? 3. Can you pick up a dropped gun @ a safe area? 4. How FAR away from the safe area is OUT of the safe area?

In MY Opinion .....

1. I would think breaking the 180 @ a safe area would be a very bad thing, but what's the penalty?

2. I assume you can sweep yourself, otherwise how would one run a "Boresnake" down the barrel?

3. I assume that if I can already handle a gun w/o RO supervision, I can retrieve my own dropped gun.

4. This is a very grey area, especially when un-bagging guns prior to a match-start and there's 8-10 people all standing in a row @ a safe area doing draws & dry-fire, and while trying to be courteous, someone moves to the left or right to make room for another shooter.

I almost NEVER see fault lines, or caution tape delineating the boundaries of the safe area, so if I'm standing 3 ft. to the left of the safe table, am I still in the safe area? How about 5 ft. to the left? What if someone is talking to a buddy who is cleaning his gun, or bagging his gun, and he's loading mags 5 ft. to the left of a safe area?

[sperman]

I know this is one of those rules that is rarely followed, but 2.4 says that the boundaries of the safe area should be clearly marked.

[Paul Santiago]

It was just the next paragaph down:

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

Kevin - After we talked about this at the match Sunday I was going to post this very same question. Then I found 2.4.1 in the rules and thought, yup, that answers my question. In the situation at the safety area on Sunday, the muzzle was pointed uprange towards other people. I would say, it was NOT pointed in a safe direction. When I told the shooter about where his muzzle was pointed, his reply was "I'm in the safe area". My reply was "YOur muzzle is pointed uprange."

No, I did not report it as I was unsure of the rule.

[whitedog]

Not sure of the rule. However I don't care about lines, marks, or berms. DON'T point a gun at me. Any time. Any where. If its not a D.Q. , it freaking should be. You want to see someone go spastic, point a gun at a vet...some may not be kind. Needs to be addressed in black and white....now.

[ktm300]

I know this is one of those rules that is rarely followed, but 2.4 says that the boundaries of the safe area should be clearly marked.

Good point, I noticed that GA State had the safe areas marked pretty well and it stood out because it is so rare.

[CZinSC]

Not sure of the rule. However I don't care about lines, marks, or berms. DON'T point a gun at me. Any time. Any where. If its not a D.Q. , it freaking should be. You want to see someone go spastic, point a gun at a vet...some may not be kind. Needs to be addressed in black and white....now.

Couldn't agree more! If I'm in the safe area and someone points a gun at me, there is a good chance they'll get my size 15 cleat up their ass.

[forddriver]

Not sure of the rule. However I don't care about lines, marks, or berms. DON'T point a gun at me. Any time. Any where. If its not a D.Q. , it freaking should be. You want to see someone go spastic, point a gun at a vet...some may not be kind. Needs to be addressed in black and white....now.

Couldn't agree more! If I'm in the safe area and someone points a gun at me, there is a good chance they'll get my size 15 cleat up their ass.

The thought of having to pull out a clown shoe covered in spikes would be enough to deter anyone!

[Nik Habicht]

It was just the next paragaph down:

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

Kevin - After we talked about this at the match Sunday I was going to post this very same question. Then I found 2.4.1 in the rules and thought, yup, that answers my question. In the situation at the safety area on Sunday, the muzzle was pointed uprange towards other people. I would say, it was NOT pointed in a safe direction. When I told the shooter about where his muzzle was pointed, his reply was "I'm in the safe area". My reply was "YOur muzzle is pointed uprange."

No, I did not report it as I was unsure of the rule.

I rarely see it, but have called people on it. My standard warning to them is that their muzzle should always point at a suitable backstop and not at other individuals. I usually get a stricken and remorseful look, and a positive attitude form the competitor....

If ignored, 10.6.1 would come into play.....

[CZinSC]

Not sure of the rule. However I don't care about lines, marks, or berms. DON'T point a gun at me. Any time. Any where. If its not a D.Q. , it freaking should be. You want to see someone go spastic, point a gun at a vet...some may not be kind. Needs to be addressed in black and white....now.

Couldn't agree more! If I'm in the safe area and someone points a gun at me, there is a good chance they'll get my size 15 cleat up their ass.

The thought of having to pull out a clown shoe covered in spikes would be enough to deter anyone!

[aztecdriver]

Not sure of the rule. However I don't care about lines, marks, or berms. DON'T point a gun at me. Any time. Any where. If its not a D.Q. , it freaking should be. You want to see someone go spastic, point a gun at a vet...some may not be kind. Needs to be addressed in black and white....now.

It's addressed in black and white. Rules define how to deal with it, and the lines and marks define where a safe area is - and where it ends. It's important to delineate this because a safe area does not necessarily need a table.

As per pointing a gun at someone - 2.4.1 addresses this - it's a DQ. No reason to get all indignant. If my muzzle has to go in an unsafe direction, because I have to mess with something - ie. FIX something, take the gun apart. For me, that's a PIA because the slide racker has to come off, but so be it.

The OP question was not about pointing a gun at someone, but whether a 180 exists in a safe area. It doesn't. What if the safe area is in a corner of a non-used bay, as long as you are pointed into the berm in that bay - it's a safe direction no?

[whitedog]

I agree...a safe direction. Absoluty. However I have seen what has been previously described in this thread, more than once. Safe area is just that, safe. Don't need a table and such...but it should always be designated somehow with boundries. Sorry if I came of indignent. Did not mean it that way at all.

[pskys2]

All the matches I've run, and most that I've gone to, had a No Shoot Target with "Safety Area" on it, or at least the No Shoot.

And the idea for that is that target is the safe area to point at. Going beyond, to the side, above or at yourself/others is asking to be DQ'd.

If the match forgets, or just don't take the time, then it's only common sense to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.

Now if the Safety Area is in an enclosed bunker with only 1 at a time in it, never seen it but guess it could?, then the 180 wouldn't apply.

The thing I don't like is NO SAFETY AREA, I've run into that at some clubs and it really bugs me. Guess I've been spoiled by USPSA's procedures.

[Jim Norman]

We have permanent tables, marked Safe Table, No Ammo at each of our pits, they are anchored top the ground along the side of the pit back behind where the stage would be set up. We don't have side markers, but the tables are 8 feet long.

[Sarge]

Yeah, I need to work on my safety areas. I need some new tables and more of them.

[Got Juice?]

As per the rules, unsafe muzzle direction is 10.6 .safe table or not.

I have seen people DQ'd at a safe table, and while you do feel bad for them, we are not playing airsoft games.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Got Juice?

[IL-SIG]

Going beyond, to the side, above or at yourself/others is asking to be DQ'd.

So, playing Devil's Advocate - if I was practicing my draws and aimed one foot to the side of the no-shoot target, but was still pointed in a safe direction, what rule would you cite to DQ me?

[BSeevers]

All the matches I've run, and most that I've gone to, had a No Shoot Target with "Safety Area" on it, or at least the No Shoot.

And the idea for that is that target is the safe area to point at. Going beyond, to the side, above or at yourself/others is asking to be DQ'd.

If the match forgets, or just don't take the time, then it's only common sense to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.

Now if the Safety Area is in an enclosed bunker with only 1 at a time in it, never seen it but guess it could?, then the 180 wouldn't apply.

The thing I don't like is NO SAFETY AREA, I've run into that at some clubs and it really bugs me. Guess I've been spoiled by USPSA's procedures.

I do this all the time. I do not point the muzzle in an unsafe direction, at a person or myself. I use the safe area to warm up a little. If I am breaking a rule I would like to know which one. Of course I don't break the 180 either and a lot of safe areas are oriented so I dont break the 47 if that makes sense.

Now to point your gun at someone from any area is unsafe and the person who did this should be DQ'ed and "talked to" about if they are a match for the sport.That kind of stupid thinking and unsafe gun handling will get somebody killed.

I subscribe to the idea that if you point your gun at me I get to return the favor. Just kidding. Kinda.