Can we please define Significant advantage? Please?

[Sarge]

I got dinged last night for taking 12 shots forward of a fault line. I got 12 procedurals. I thought that was a little harsh since the targets were no more available than they were from the fault line and I was shooting an Open gun at 5 yards instead of 6 yards.

When I asked some RMI's about a situation I had last year I was told the biggest determination to being significant is that targets become available when they would otherwise not be visible from within the fault lines. But the RO's I talked to last night said they were told by other RM's that being closer to a target is an automatic significant advantage. I guess I can see that if you run 10 yards forward and take the shots but not by just stepping over a fault line and shooting from a few feet closer on a 15 yard array.

My case last year involved a shooter stepping out to the side of a wall to take his shots while the rest of the shooters had some tough leaners to be able to get to the targets. To me that was a plain and simple significant advantage but I was told otherwise since it gave him no targets to shoot that he could not see from behind the wall.

Again, it looks like this rule is too open to interpretation and needs to be simplified by just calling all foot faults one per shot.

[DWFAN]

I got 8 for a 3 inch advantage on 8 poppers at 15yards at an AREA match. I wouldnt mind a more clearly defined Significant Advantage clause either.

[Sarge]

I got 8 for a 3 inch advantage on 8 poppers at 15yards at an AREA match. I wouldnt mind a more clearly defined Significant Advantage clause either.

I'm sorry but I laughed out loud when I read that. I'm sorry that happened but that is kind of ridiculous!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Nothing I do will allow me to gain a significant advantage. Absolutely Nothing

[CHA-LEE]

In the NROI RO and CRO courses I took they talked about what defines a significant advantage or not. Basically it comes down to common sense to determine the difference between an "Advantage" and a "Significant Advantage". If a shooter is foot faulted and is a foot or two closer to the same targets they would be engaging from a normal shooting position, that is NOT a Significant Advantage. It may be an advantage being slightly closer to the targets but its not a significant advantage.

The only time I will consider issuing a per shot fired significant advantage is if the shooter is able to engage targets from a faulted position that others can't engage while staying in a valid shooting position. Or if they can engage the same targets as everyone else from a far better stance or gun handling condition by faulting. Such as standing outside of the shooting area to avoid a vision barrier that forces a shooter to go prone, shoot one handed or something like that.

Lastly, when you have RO's that obviously don't know the rules or how to apply the rules you need to get the RM or MD involved to resolve the issue. If you let these uninformed or misinformed RO's apply rules incorrectly they will never learn. We all screw up from time to time. Its all a learning process. The guys who don't want to learn are the ones who need to be told to stop ROing.

[PKT1106]

I got dinged last night for taking 12 shots forward of a fault line.

So, you were forward of the fault line while taking shots. Still penalties whether they were an advantage or not, right?

[Skydiver]

Yes, but if significant advantage is determined, it is a per shot procedural. Otherwise it is just one procedural irregardless of the number of shots.

[twodownzero]

This is one rule where I favor the RO making a judgment, as long as the judgment is the same for everyone.

[Sarge]

I got dinged last night for taking 12 shots forward of a fault line.

So, you were forward of the fault line while taking shots. Still penalties whether they were an advantage or not, right?

Yes but only 1 instead of 12!

[Don Springer]

Why were you forward of the fault line?

[PKT1106]

I got dinged last night for taking 12 shots forward of a fault line.

So, you were forward of the fault line while taking shots. Still penalties whether they were an advantage or not, right?

Yes but only 1 instead of 12!

Is it not a procedural for every shot fired outside of a boundary or fault line? I want to check the rules, but I cannot access USPSA for some reason.

[colt]

I think one's significant advantage will always differ from someone else significant advantage. I rather take it out of the RO's opinion and say per shot. We will learn not to cross the line.

Brent

[atbarr]

At the Battle in the Bluegrass, I had a brain fart, and when I was inserting another mag, I stepped ONE FOOT out of the shooting area. I was hit for TWENTY-SIX procedurals. The targets (plates and paper) were 15 yds away. Needless to say, it knocked me down to the bottom of Production.

In the NROI RO and CRO courses I took they talked about what defines a significant advantage or not. Basically it comes down to common sense to determine the difference between an "Advantage" and a "Significant Advantage". If a shooter is foot faulted and is a foot or two closer to the same targets they would be engaging from a normal shooting position, that is NOT a Significant Advantage. It may be an advantage being slightly closer to the targets but its not a significant advantage.

The only time I will consider issuing a per shot fired significant advantage is if the shooter is able to engage targets from a faulted position that others can't engage while staying in a valid shooting position. Or if they can engage the same targets as everyone else from a far better stance or gun handling condition by faulting. Such as standing outside of the shooting area to avoid a vision barrier that forces a shooter to go prone, shoot one handed or something like that.

Lastly, when you have RO's that obviously don't know the rules or how to apply the rules you need to get the RM or MD involved to resolve the issue. If you let these uninformed or misinformed RO's apply rules incorrectly they will never learn. We all screw up from time to time. Its all a learning process. The guys who don't want to learn are the ones who need to be told to stop ROing.

[Sarge]

Why were you forward of the fault line?

Same reason as many others who end up there. I F'd up.

[Sarge]

Is it not a procedural for every shot fired outside of a boundary or fault line? I want to check the rules, but I cannot access USPSA for some reason.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting,the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

[CZinSC]

Get rid of the words "significant advantage" entirely and make it one procedural per shot, no matter what. Fault lines are there to delineate the shooting area. If you cannot stay in the area, you should be penalized for every shot taken while faulting.

[OUshooter]

I'm all about simple. Take out "significant" and just make it one procedural for each shot period when faulting. I'd keep 10.2.3 to go with it so that if you bang away with 12 rounds at 4 plates you only end up with 4 procedurals. The time you wasted not going 1 for 1 is going to sting on top of the 4 proc.

[mhop]

At the Battle in the Bluegrass, I had a brain fart, and when I was inserting another mag, I stepped ONE FOOT out of the shooting area. I was hit for TWENTY-SIX procedurals. The targets (plates and paper) were 15 yds away. Needless to say, it knocked me down to the bottom of Production.

In the NROI RO and CRO courses I took they talked about what defines a significant advantage or not. Basically it comes down to common sense to determine the difference between an "Advantage" and a "Significant Advantage". If a shooter is foot faulted and is a foot or two closer to the same targets they would be engaging from a normal shooting position, that is NOT a Significant Advantage. It may be an advantage being slightly closer to the targets but its not a significant advantage.

The only time I will consider issuing a per shot fired significant advantage is if the shooter is able to engage targets from a faulted position that others can't engage while staying in a valid shooting position. Or if they can engage the same targets as everyone else from a far better stance or gun handling condition by faulting. Such as standing outside of the shooting area to avoid a vision barrier that forces a shooter to go prone, shoot one handed or something like that.

Lastly, when you have RO's that obviously don't know the rules or how to apply the rules you need to get the RM or MD involved to resolve the issue. If you let these uninformed or misinformed RO's apply rules incorrectly they will never learn. We all screw up from time to time. Its all a learning process. The guys who don't want to learn are the ones who need to be told to stop ROing.

there were 26 shots available from where you stepped out?

[Sarge]

Lastly, when you have RO's that obviously don't know the rules or how to apply the rules you need to get the RM or MD involved to resolve the issue. If you let these uninformed or misinformed RO's apply rules incorrectly they will never learn. We all screw up from time to time. Its all a learning process. The guys who don't want to learn are the ones who need to be told to stop ROing.

Before this gets too out of control I am going on record as saying this was not the case. First it was a practice league environment. The MD was one of the RO's involved in the discussion. Second I would put any of the RO's involved up against the best anywhere. They are all good RO's, even the guy who gave me the procedurals. That is not the problem with this rule. If anybody needs to get on the same page it is NROI and the RMI's. That is not a critical statement it is just a fact. The conversation went something like this. Me- Guys I think 12 procedurals for that was a little much. I was told by an RMI that a significant advantage is more than what I did. RO 2 I agree but the RO made the call so it is what it is. RO 2 I think it is the right call because RMI "X" told me it is automatic significant advantage if you are closer to a target, period. RO 3 THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE RULE NEEDS CHANGED!

I think any rule that leaves something open to such broad interpretation should at least be addressed at higher levels so us RO's are getting consistent info from our chain of command.

Based off of the conversation last night, depending on who is the RM for a given match you could get a totally different ruling than you could get at any other match, including the Nationals. That should never be the case.

[mhop]

Is it not a procedural for every shot fired outside of a boundary or fault line? I want to check the rules, but I cannot access USPSA for some reason.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting,the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

10.2.3

[Sarge]

Is it not a procedural for every shot fired outside of a boundary or fault line? I want to check the rules, but I cannot access USPSA for some reason.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting,the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

10.2.3

10.2.3? We are not talking maximum number allowed. We are talking significant advantage vs no significant advantage. Good lord let's not muddy the waters even more.

[OUshooter]

Lastly, when you have RO's that obviously don't know the rules or how to apply the rules you need to get the RM or MD involved to resolve the issue. If you let these uninformed or misinformed RO's apply rules incorrectly they will never learn. We all screw up from time to time. Its all a learning process. The guys who don't want to learn are the ones who need to be told to stop ROing.

Before this gets too out of control I am going on record as saying this was not the case. First it was a practice league environment. The MD was one of the RO's involved in the discussion. Second I would put any of the RO's involved up against the best anywhere. They are all good RO's, even the guy who gave me the procedurals. That is not the problem with this rule. If anybody needs to get on the same page it is NROI and the RMI's. That is not a critical statement it is just a fact. The conversation went something like this. Me- Guys I think 12 procedurals for that was a little much. I was told by an RMI that a significant advantage is more than what I did. RO 2 I agree but the RO made the call so it is what it is. RO 2 I think it is the right call because RMI "X" told me it is automatic significant advantage if you are closer to a target, period. RO 3 THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE RULE NEEDS CHANGED!

I think any rule that leaves something open to such broad interpretation should at least be addressed at higher levels so us RO's are getting consistent info from our chain of command.

Based off of the conversation last night, depending on who is the RM for a given match you could get a totally different ruling than you could get at any other match, including the Nationals. That should never be the case.

I completely agree that an RO at Nats should assess it the same as an RO at a Lvl I club match. IMHO the easiest thing to do is draw a line in the sand. Make any advantage a "significant" advantage.

[pjb45]

I was at Nationals when three members of our squad were deemed 'significant advantage' by the RO and CRO on two different stages. The first shooter shooter just took the penalty. The second shooter on the stage asked why. The match director reversed the call. To the great credit of the CRO, he changed the first shooter's score.

On the next stage, the same thing happened. The call was appealed up the food chain and was reversed. This is a judgement call. Some RO and CRO do not like that it is not black or white. But the rule is a good rule.

You should have had only one penalty assessed on the score sheet.

Any advantage is not significant advantage.

[OUshooter]

I guess I'm a guy that doesn't see much gray, either is or isn't.

When shooting Prod or SS does it really matter, "offer a significant advantage" that you pulled a mag with 11rds from your last pouch that was just above your butt crack, loaded 1, ejected and put it back, then pulled a mag from your front pocket and stuck it in the gun? Hell no it didn't matter, but it sure has sin bumped you to Open, depending on the RO. Thankfully that has been rectified.

All I'm saying is that rules are easier to enforce and a lot of people's time is not wasted if the rules are less gray. Also they are more easily applied across all levels of competition.

Edited September 12, 2012 by OUshooter

[Kevin Pledger]

From my understanding of this and how its been explained to me by both USPSA RM/RMI / IPSC RM, it ALL depends on the target array presented to you.

In other words at 6meters is the view different from what you seen at 5meters.

Example: At 6meters, you might have to lean left / right or move left / right to see all targets, but at 5meters you can just stand there and see all targets.

But in general terms I would consider 1 meter over the line a significant advantage, so 1 Procedural per Shot fired.

Cheers ....