RO's , What's your call on this one?

[Outsydlooknin75]

I think that RO's should not make the DQ call. They should put the score sheet aside, call the next shooter to the line, and call for the match director. When the match director arrives, the RO (or RO's) give the story to the MD, who then makes the final call and informs the competitor. In this case if the rules call for a DQ for not having the gun on safe then that is clearly what is called for, but I very much think that a hot gun left muzzle down in a dump barrel should be a 30 second (or as determined by the rules) penalty and not a DQ.

Who says it was in a dump barrel? Not all grounded weapons are in dump barrels. Look at pro am .... Stage 7 and 8 had grounded weapons that were not in barrels.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

[toothandnail]

Right or wrong here's what we saw and the call was made.

It WAS in a dump barrel pointing in a SAFE direction

After inserting the charge handle , racking the bolt , the primer had a VERY slight indentation.

For some reason, the firing pin barely hits the primer when the charge handle is out (Browning)

I tried it on my SG (MKA 1919) it does the SAME ? ? haven't investigated further.

The safety was/seemed to be blocking the firing pin (SOMETHING was) from striking the primer.

The safety was , at least partially engaged , benefit of doubt goes to the shooter.

[busyhawk]

Now someone needs to start a thread about the duties of the Range Officer (CRO), Range Master and the Match Director. Someone out there is messing this all up.

Respectively,

Busyhawk

[Overwatcher]

Now someone needs to start a thread about the duties of the Range Officer (CRO), Range Master and the Match Director. Someone out there is messing this all up.

Respectively,

Busyhawk

Agreed!

[HOA]

The RO makes the DQ call and cites the rule broken that caused the DQ. The RM has the authority to overrule the DQ. The MD has no authority over the RM in regards to shooting and safety issues.

7.1.6 Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons and activities within the entire range, including range safety, the operation of all courses of fire and the application of these rules. All match dis- qualifications and appeals to arbitration must be brought to his atten- tion. The Range Master is usually appointed by and works with the Match Director, however, in respect of USPSA sanctioned Level III and Nationals matches, the appointment of the Range Master is subject to the prior written approval of the Director of NROI.

7.1.7 Match Director (“MD”) – handles overall match administration includ- ing squadding, scheduling, range construction, the coordination of all support staff and the provision of services. His authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain of the Range Master. The Match Director is appointed by the host organization and works with the Range Master.

[Got Juice?]

Assuming from your description that the shotgun was pointed in a safe direction and that the safety being stuck means it would not move to the safe position, the shooter is OK to proceed. It seems he did everything possible to both clear the jam and make the shotgun safe.

The proper response by the shooter is one of the option outlined in my post above (if allowed by the rules), or simply stop and declare their stage is over (no DQ, just a poor score).

Nailed it. Firearm disqualified as unsafe; shooter does not continue CoF (just gets crappy score on one stage) and he would not earn a 10.6.

[Nik Habicht]

Assuming from your description that the shotgun was pointed in a safe direction and that the safety being stuck means it would not move to the safe position, the shooter is OK to proceed. It seems he did everything possible to both clear the jam and make the shotgun safe.

Sorry, Andy...that cannot be right. Gotta be a DQ.

Trying to be safe doesn't equal complying with requirements.....

We don't give partial credit here....

[Nik Habicht]

I think that RO's should not make the DQ call. They should put the score sheet aside, call the next shooter to the line, and call for the match director. When the match director arrives, the RO (or RO's) give the story to the MD, who then makes the final call and informs the competitor. In this case if the rules call for a DQ for not having the gun on safe then that is clearly what is called for, but I very much think that a hot gun left muzzle down in a dump barrel should be a 30 second (or as determined by the rules) penalty and not a DQ.

I for one won't work as an RO at any match where I can't make the DQ call when needed.....

Being overturned is one thing, not being able to make a range safety call in the first place is a dealbreaker....

[Flexmoney]

I think that RO's should not make the DQ call. They should put the score sheet aside, call the next shooter to the line, and call for the match director. When the match director arrives, the RO (or RO's) give the story to the MD, who then makes the final call and informs the competitor. In this case if the rules call for a DQ for not having the gun on safe then that is clearly what is called for, but I very much think that a hot gun left muzzle down in a dump barrel should be a 30 second (or as determined by the rules) penalty and not a DQ.

I completely disagree.

The officiating of the match ought not to be in the Match Director's hands. Separation of powers.

[jwfuhrman]

INMG Rules modified this rule. If its a grounded gun, that is pointing downrange, that is "unsafe" (ie, safety not on, or completely empty), the shooter gets a Stage DQ on the spot. The gun didn't go bang, its pointing in a safe direction, and no one goes down range until all the guns are cleared, therefore a Stage DQ is appropriate over a Match DQ. If the shooter would have grounded his gun and it went off, well then that's a Match DQ.

Rule Number: 2.3

http://www.indianamultigun.com/Media/INMG%20Rules%20rev%203-29-12.pdf

Edited September 18, 2012 by jwfuhrman

[wdlong1]

i do not want to start a pissing contest BUT why should a shooter doing a correct movement as best he can, be penalized for a mechanical malfunction.

if a car catches fire no 1 is held to blame for it. its mechanical.

not sure this is going to be well received but we have so many nit picky riles now no1 can remember them all.

more importantly no 1 can craft a rule to cover every scenario. r.o's for 99.999% of the match i have shot, (only been shooting 3 gun 15 or so years) are very smart people and see a lot more f/ups'' than any individual shooter ever witness's.. let them mnake the call on knowledge and common sense.

a good r.o., and most of the are, should make the call on common sense. NOT the way 10 people interpret the rules 10 ways. with none being all right or all wrong. if its broke and in a safe direction how can u blame the shooter???

not meant to offend just my thoughts which tie into "toooo many picky little rules."

YMMV

jjw

because the shooter is responsible for his own equipment, period.

[Jim Norman]

What match allows RO's to make DQ calls? That decision should only be deferred to the MD.

Actually the RM is called in simply to make the next level aware, The RO makes the DQ call, the RM can overturn it if the RO erred, however that is a very rare occurrence. The RO / CRO is in charge of the stage and he is there on the scene, the RM is not likely to be at the stage when the call is made. He doesn't see what happens, he may in some cases conduct a brief investigation to ascertain the facts to support the call or as stated in a rare instance overturn the call if the RO made an error by calling a DQ for a situation that the rules do not call for a DQ in.

If your MD has selected good staff the RM should have no problem supporting and confirming their calls. If the RM argues against each call we have a problem, either the RM or the RO is not suited to the job.

A DQ for safety cannot generally be arbitrated. You can arbitrate that the action in and of itself was not unsafe, but you cannot arbitrate the actual call. The SG was not on safe and may have been loaded, the RO calls it a DQ. Is the SG w/o the safety on unsafe? That you might arbitrate, but you can't arbitrate the call. The rules state the safety must be on, the RO calls it. Also if there is a doubt about the gun being loaded, who let it leave the line? We have to clear that SG before it leaves the line. Was there a round in the gun? in the chamber? was the hammer down? was the safety on enough to block the action?

Lots of unanswered questions.

Me, I'd like to have 'bunkers' set up so that no one can get in front of the gun PERIOD. You put it in the bunker and and you are good to go, no worry about a safety or being loaded. If it goes off in the bunker, you have a problem, period. If it falls out of the bunker, you are DONE, Match DQ. it is a dropped gun, loaded, unloaded, safety on or off, DQ. Really not all that hard. Maybe a little bit of difficulty to arrange the stages so the bunkers are in a protected direction, but seriously, if you load up all the guns at a match, place them on a table somewhere and watch them, not one of them is going to go bang so long as no one touches them.

[Alaskapopo]

I think that RO's should not make the DQ call. They should put the score sheet aside, call the next shooter to the line, and call for the match director. When the match director arrives, the RO (or RO's) give the story to the MD, who then makes the final call and informs the competitor. In this case if the rules call for a DQ for not having the gun on safe then that is clearly what is called for, but I very much think that a hot gun left muzzle down in a dump barrel should be a 30 second (or as determined by the rules) penalty and not a DQ.

Agree.

On one of the last stages I shot in the Texas Multigun match The c clip that holds the hammer pin in my Saiga broke and I ended up with a gun I could not rack the round out of because the bolt was trapped and the safety did not want to go on. I pushed on it as hard as I could and barely managed to get it into the safe position and then I abandoned the gun. If I had not have got the safety on I would have been DQ's or I would have had to tell the RO I am stopping because my gun is broke and take the penalties. Rules are rules but I dislike the rules calling for a DQ if someone forgets to put a safety on a weapon going into a barrel yet a Glock shooter can just throw it in there. Both guns will go bang if the trigger is pulled period.Stupid rule. I like the idea of a stage DQ or a 30 second penalty more.

Pat

Edited September 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Jim Norman]

And sooner or later a gun will go bang because it will catch on some piece of crap in the bunker that will manipulate the trigger. A Glock has a safety, albeit one on the trigger, but the chances of a piece of crap depressing the safety lever AND manipulating the trigger are pretty slim. compare that to a 1911 with a pinned or grip safety and a 2 pound trigger. Sorry, unless the bunkers are built to a berm and the gun cannot fall out, then the safety must be applied. Sure the rules can bite us all, but a really bad accident can shut us down. We all go into this knowing the rules. If we don;t like them, we are free to run our own matches with our own rules. Just remember, if it starts to go bad, it will go bad very fast and in the worst way.

[OUshooter]

I agree that the competitor is solely responsibly for the safe operation of their gear. The RO has to have full authority to issue a DQ. The shooter is the one who earned the DQ, the RO just verified it.

If the WSB says the dumped weapon must be on safe and it wasn't on safe then it's a DQ. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

[outerlimits]

The "glock rule" is BS. Just another way to sell a shi$load of them for 3 gun.

Edited September 29, 2012 by outerlimits

[Alaskapopo]

And sooner or later a gun will go bang because it will catch on some piece of crap in the bunker that will manipulate the trigger. A Glock has a safety, albeit one on the trigger, but the chances of a piece of crap depressing the safety lever AND manipulating the trigger are pretty slim. compare that to a 1911 with a pinned or grip safety and a 2 pound trigger. Sorry, unless the bunkers are built to a berm and the gun cannot fall out, then the safety must be applied. Sure the rules can bite us all, but a really bad accident can shut us down. We all go into this knowing the rules. If we don;t like them, we are free to run our own matches with our own rules. Just remember, if it starts to go bad, it will go bad very fast and in the worst way.

Look either its safe or its not is how I look at it. So either you have drop bucket where if a round were to fire it would simple go into the ground and be safe or you make all competators empty their guns regardless of design. Some of the Glock triggers out there are pretty light and the safety is in the middle of the trigger so if something were to catch the trigger it could fire as well. In reality its not likely with either. My point being the same rules for all gun classes when it comes to safety. On tube fed shotguns I think the chamber being empty should count as an empty gun in the barrel. There is no way a round in the mag tube is going to load itself and fire in the chamber. I have seen some match designers make stage rules to where the gun had to be empty before putting the gund own in the designated barrel, table or what not. For tube shotguns this was a pain in the rea. Easy with my Saiga not so much so with my Benelli.

Pat

Edited September 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Jim Norman]

I will stand with my statement with maybe one concession. The bunker must retain the firearm in a direction and manner that should a round be discharged it will go into the ground in a safe direction. Any where in front of the bunker should be inaccessible to competitors and staff. The gun going bang is of course a Match DQ.

[oak hill]

Everyone has an opinion....

As a competitor, I never want to go down range of my loaded gun period for safety sake. There are lots of things that can be done in setup as Mr. Norman is suggesting to make a stage safer, but ultimately it is up each of us as responsible firearms owners to complete each stage in a safe manner. Spelled out in the rules or not, we have a responsibility to the sport to avoid any possible safety catastrophes.

[Alaskapopo]

Out of curiousity anyone ever seen a gun fire that was placed in a drop bucket with the safety off after the shooter let got of it?

Pat

[Jim Norman]

Alaskapopo,

I have not seen this, but and I think the issue is if two guns were to be placed int eh same bunker and somehow were to move, slip. slide around is it remotely possible that an attachment on one could trigger the other were it not on safe?

If each gun is independently placed in a bunker, and no one touches it, the potential exists, but at such a low level that short of a galactic cataclysm we are unlikely to see it. This said, if the guns are bunkered in a safe direction and no one can get in front of them, then I see no problem that they be empty, on safe, etc. I do see a slight potential that a gun as it is being bunkered were it not in a safe condition, i.e., safety on or empty, it could discharge, the shooter's own finger could sweep the trigger as he bunkers the gun. Likely, NO, Covered in the Rules? Yes, Unsafe Gun Handling, DQ. Does putting your gun on safe really slow you down that much? Matches of this type are generally not won by tenths of seconds.

[Alaskapopo]

Alaskapopo,

I have not seen this, but and I think the issue is if two guns were to be placed int eh same bunker and somehow were to move, slip. slide around is it remotely possible that an attachment on one could trigger the other were it not on safe?

If each gun is independently placed in a bunker, and no one touches it, the potential exists, but at such a low level that short of a galactic cataclysm we are unlikely to see it. This said, if the guns are bunkered in a safe direction and no one can get in front of them, then I see no problem that they be empty, on safe, etc. I do see a slight potential that a gun as it is being bunkered were it not in a safe condition, i.e., safety on or empty, it could discharge, the shooter's own finger could sweep the trigger as he bunkers the gun. Likely, NO, Covered in the Rules? Yes, Unsafe Gun Handling, DQ. Does putting your gun on safe really slow you down that much? Matches of this type are generally not won by tenths of seconds.

I agree its not a big deal to put your gun on safe. However I think its BS to DQ someone because they put their gun in a drop bucket or on a table and forgot to put the safety on. Stage DQ sure match DQ no not unless they had to run in front of the muzzle which is poor stage design. The reason I asked the question is I think this is one of those things where people are way over thinking it. We run with guns yet were scared to death of them. (ie cold ranges, DQ for putting a weapon down with the safety off and loaded etc)

Pat

Edited October 2, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Dave Campbell]

Out of curiousity anyone ever seen a gun fire that was placed in a drop bucket with the safety off after the shooter let got of it?

Pat

Actually, yes , shooter dumped a shotgun, safety off, on an inclined platform, took two steps away and the gun went off.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Dave Campbell

[Dan Sierpina]

Out of curiousity anyone ever seen a gun fire that was placed in a drop bucket with the safety off after the shooter let got of it?

Pat

Actually, yes , shooter dumped a shotgun, safety off, on an inclined platform, took two steps away and the gun went off.

Dave,

Didn't that happen at a 3 Gun Nation shootoff? Maybe Blue Ridge?

[Flexmoney]

Out of curiousity anyone ever seen a gun fire that was placed in a drop bucket with the safety off after the shooter let got of it?

Pat

You mean by some helpful RO or squad mate that came along behind and "adjusted it"?

Belt + Suspenders