ktm300 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 My single stack gun is very close on weight. 42.8 with one of my normal mags. I run a no gap magwell and the bases add a little weight. I have a standard mag that I barny from that will work in the gun and it is .2 oz lighter. Would it be OK to use that at the crono table to give me a bit more room to take a breath? I had a situation where the 42.8 gun did not pass weight and I ended up in open. I have checked the gun on several other scales and it does weigh 42.8. I am not fond of shooting Open with an 8 round gun with no comp and no dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpygravy Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I had a situation where the 42.8 gun did not pass weight and I ended up in open. I have checked the gun on several other scales and it does weigh 42.8. I'm not up on the chrono rules regarding making weight, but if I was sure I made weight but failed the scale at a match, I'd ask for a scale calibration with a check weight. OTOH, 42.8 is AWFULLY close.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 OTOH, 42.8 is AWFULLY close.... It is a STI frame and slide with a steel full lenght guide rod, G10 grips, and a no gap magwell with Aluminum MSH. Not a whole lot to do to take weight off of it. I don't see anything in the rulebook about a way to challenge the scale for weighing the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 OTOH, 42.8 is AWFULLY close.... It is a STI frame and slide with a steel full lenght guide rod, G10 grips, and a no gap magwell with Aluminum MSH. Not a whole lot to do to take weight off of it. I don't see anything in the rulebook about a way to challenge the scale for weighing the guns. Tri-Top the slide, internally lighten, remove material under the grips, polymer guide rod. There are lots of ways to lighten the weight. STI's come in a bit heavy to begin with depending on which frame you have. Your choice how much work you want to do to ensure compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braxton1 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I agree with KTM. There's really not an established arbitration procedure for scales, so this is WAY too close. First thing that I'd dump is the G-10s. Most of them are pretty heavy, plus this doesn't require any machine work like tri-topping. There is also a LOT of weight to be lost under the grips on most 1911s. And hogging it out is simple machining that requires very little elegance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 In answer to your question I don't think you can use a special mag for making weight even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 So the last thing I ever want to do is cheat. My gun makes weight but as it has been said .2 of an ounce is pretty close so the mag to get an extra .2 of breathing room is a luxury. I hate the thought of grinding away at my gun because we don't have a good procedure for weighing the guns in the rulebook. Looking at the rulebook it says an empty mag. Not an empty mag you are using in every stage etc. It would be an empty mag and I would using in the match to barny from. As Load and make ready starts the COF it would be used in the COF. I was just wondering if I missed something in the rulebook that says I have to use a specific mag. Or if all the mags have to weigh the same etc. My understanding is that if it's not specifically prohibited, it is allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So the last thing I ever want to do is cheat. My gun makes weight but as it has been said .2 of an ounce is pretty close so the mag to get an extra .2 of breathing room is a luxury. I hate the thought of grinding away at my gun because we don't have a good procedure for weighing the guns in the rulebook. Looking at the rulebook it says an empty mag. Not an empty mag you are using in every stage etc. It would be an empty mag and I would using in the match to barny from. As Load and make ready starts the COF it would be used in the COF. I was just wondering if I missed something in the rulebook that says I have to use a specific mag. Or if all the mags have to weigh the same etc. My understanding is that if it's not specifically prohibited, it is allowed? But if you look a couple lines about the weight requirements, there is a size requirement and that one say all magazines, not just a special magazine that you use to make sure you fit in the box. I think there is an implication that you need to make weight with any of your magazines, although not stated explicitly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So the last thing I ever want to do is cheat. My gun makes weight but as it has been said .2 of an ounce is pretty close so the mag to get an extra .2 of breathing room is a luxury. I hate the thought of grinding away at my gun because we don't have a good procedure for weighing the guns in the rulebook. Looking at the rulebook it says an empty mag. Not an empty mag you are using in every stage etc. It would be an empty mag and I would using in the match to barny from. As Load and make ready starts the COF it would be used in the COF. I was just wondering if I missed something in the rulebook that says I have to use a specific mag. Or if all the mags have to weigh the same etc. My understanding is that if it's not specifically prohibited, it is allowed? But if you look a couple lines about the weight requirements, there is a size requirement and that one say all magazines, not just a special magazine that you use to make sure you fit in the box. I think there is an implication that you need to make weight with any of your magazines, although not stated explicitly. So, it is time for chrono. Can they ask you to unload a mag off your belt for the weigh in? (Serious question never been in this position) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 That was my thought. I don't think there is anything in the rules that says you can't have that mag, but I also think there isn't anything stopping the Chrono officer from saying "give me one of those mags off your belt". Personally I wouldn't do it, because Chrono shouldn't be the stage you worry about the most at a match. I like walking in there knowing my ammo will make PF by enough margin and my gun will fit in the box and be within weight limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 I also think there isn't anything stopping the Chrono officer from saying "give me one of those mags off your belt". I think I would ask him to show me where he was coming up with that in the rulebook. I looked pretty hard at the procedures and don't find anything about it. Even if he did make me use one of my other mags I should be OK as long as his scale is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I would add an AL guide rod, maybe plastic MSH. (unless you want to switch to AL grips). Those are the easiest places to save weight, without grinding away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie j Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Is this your 9mm that's built on a rangemaster frame? If it is I'm surprised it's even .2 under, that's the heaviest SS configuration I can imagine. I'm with bruce cut the windows out under the grips and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I also think there isn't anything stopping the Chrono officer from saying "give me one of those mags off your belt". I think I would ask him to show me where he was coming up with that in the rulebook. I looked pretty hard at the procedures and don't find anything about it. Even if he did make me use one of my other mags I should be OK as long as his scale is correct. I thought about that too. The only thing I can think of would be: Appendix C2 47. The Chrono Officer will inspect the competitor’s handgun and report any failure of the following to the Range Master: a. Proper function of the handgun’s primary safety mechanism(s) b. Safe condition and operation c. Compliance with the requirements of the declared Division He could tell you he is checking to make sure your gun and mags are in compliance with your division. It's a stretch, I know. Not even sure he can do that. That was why I said I wouldn't even do it. Being SURE you will pass Chrono is miles ahead of THINKING you're going to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So the last thing I ever want to do is cheat. My gun makes weight but as it has been said .2 of an ounce is pretty close so the mag to get an extra .2 of breathing room is a luxury. I hate the thought of grinding away at my gun because we don't have a good procedure for weighing the guns in the rulebook. Looking at the rulebook it says an empty mag. Not an empty mag you are using in every stage etc. It would be an empty mag and I would using in the match to barny from. As Load and make ready starts the COF it would be used in the COF. I was just wondering if I missed something in the rulebook that says I have to use a specific mag. Or if all the mags have to weigh the same etc. My understanding is that if it's not specifically prohibited, it is allowed? But if you look a couple lines about the weight requirements, there is a size requirement and that one say all magazines, not just a special magazine that you use to make sure you fit in the box. I think there is an implication that you need to make weight with any of your magazines, although not stated explicitly. So, it is time for chrono. Can they ask you to unload a mag off your belt for the weigh in? (Serious question never been in this position) Why not? They can choose to randomly grab any of your mags and chrono the ammo in them? I don't see anything that prevents the match staff from then emptying that mag, and dropping the gun on the scale.... When it comes to making weight, make sure your gun makes it with all mags; it's the prudent thing to do..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 A chrono officer could check your gun with all mags -- unlikely, but it could happen.... What's the purpose of the weight limit? To ensure that every shoots a gun whose base weight with an unloaded mag does not exceed 43 ounces, right? If a competitor's gun exceeds that weight with most of the mags he uses, and he has a "special lighter mag" just for chrono, how would that not be considered cheating? Just as we load a little over required power factor, we should have our guns weigh a little under a maximum weight limit. It makes chrono so much easier to deal with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 OK OK (:0 I will take some more weight off the gun to be sure. I have a new set of G10's on the way from Larry Davidson that he has tried to take as much weight off as he can so I will see if that helps get me some more room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Just as we load a little over required power factor, we should have our guns weigh a little under a maximum weight limit. It makes chrono so much easier to deal with.... First, what is a little? 1/2 ounce, 1/4 ounce, 1 ounce? .2 is a little but I don't feel safe as I have seen .5 ounce in weight varicance from the match scale to one I know is correct. I have already said the gun makes weight, just not by a whole lot. I don't need the mags to make weight, I need the lite mag so the guy running the scale can weigh the gun poorly and for it to still pass. Power factor can be influenced by a lot of factors like temp, humidity, etc. Power factor is not at all the same as weight. Weight is weight and there should be no significant variables. If we had a good set of guidlines to set up, calibrate, and test the scale then there would be no reason to have the gun under weight just so the guy running crono can have a bad scale, poor procedure, or both. Currently in the rulebook they go into great detail about how to weigh bullets and have nothing on how to weigh guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Well, I did see a dirty G34 not make weight at a larger match last year. (not mine, one of our squad) Edited July 26, 2012 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Put more witness holes, or bigger witness holes in the mags.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) A chrono procedure I experienced last year was to safety check the gun, load magazine and shoot across chrono, empty magazine and put in box, place gun on scale to check weight. Lim and Open had mags checked, but of course no box or weight for them. Edited July 26, 2012 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 OTOH, 42.8 is AWFULLY close.... It is a STI frame and slide with a steel full lenght guide rod, G10 grips, and a no gap magwell with Aluminum MSH. Not a whole lot to do to take weight off of it. I don't see anything in the rulebook about a way to challenge the scale for weighing the guns. Tri-Top the slide, internally lighten, remove material under the grips, polymer guide rod. There are lots of ways to lighten the weight. STI's come in a bit heavy to begin with depending on which frame you have. Your choice how much work you want to do to ensure compliance. Chuck, gave you a bunch of options. The easiest is to use a polymer or ALuminum guide rod. If your grips are solid G10, cut some reliefs on the back side like Techwear does with their Techwell grips. My gun comes in at 38-39oz with a mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think there are 2 questions here. The first one which has been answered repeatedly is "How can I make my gun lighter." The second question (I'm reading between the lines here a little bit is: "What do you do if you know your gun is legal, but the scale at the match says it is too heavy." I know Matt has access to multiple scales that are calibrated by NIST standards. If all of those scales say the gun is 42.8, why shouldn't he be comfortable taking that gun to a match and not having to sweat the chrono? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 The second question (I'm reading between the lines here a little bit is: "What do you do if you know your gun is legal, but the scale at the match says it is too heavy." I know Matt has access to multiple scales that are calibrated by NIST standards. If all of those scales say the gun is 42.8, why shouldn't he be comfortable taking that gun to a match and not having to sweat the chrono? Perfect! Why didn't I say that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvhendrix Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Unfortunately at the CRONO. It doesn't matter at the major match, what your crono/scale at home read. I agree there needs to be a certified scale, but at present I have shot 5 different majors and no two have used the same scale nor type, except for the Nationals. All of the SS Nationals I've shot they used the same or it appeared to be the same scale. Not so at 3 different Sections and 2 Area matches. Edited July 26, 2012 by pvhendrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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