Shotgun plate turned 90degrees

[Merlin Orr]

....but....but....

WHAT IF IT TURNS 90 DEGREES???!!!

WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?????? WHAT DO YOU DO THEN???

ericm

Swear at it and move on. Take your penalty and try to do better next time. It's probably not worth saving the time penalty, especially when you figure in reload time and goofing up your carefully crafted stage execution plan, to shoot at it a few more times, which isn't even guaranteed to work.

Tom said it....

If you want Fair there's one in Dallas, TX Sept 28 - Oct 21.

[Stlhead]

I like pie.

[bigbrowndog]

mmmmmm pie ala mode!!!!

[KentG]

I like pie.

IBTL

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I like pie.

Cranberry apple pie

[kurtm]

If you go to the IPSC shotgun rules and regs, in the appendix you will find a design for a falling steel plate that can't turn...ever, and it falls when hit with enough shot no matter where it is hit. I have enjoyed these targets since 2003 when I shoot over-seas...but like the "new fangled" load 2 vests and belts (also encountered in 2003 over-seas) I guess it takes a long time for stuff to travel back to the U.S.

[MarkCO]

Or...shotgun gurus good enough to go overseas failed to inform the US plebes of those innovations...

[kurtm]

Hie thee to the search function and you will find that time and time again Trapr and I HAVE brought these things to the U.S. Shooter's attention, same with falling steel plates for rifle since 2004...but as Don McClain sang..." their not listening, they did not know how, and their not listening now! (from Stary Stary night by Don McClain)

[dmshozer1]

If you go to the IPSC shotgun rules and regs, in the appendix you will find a design for a falling steel plate that can't turn...ever, and it falls when hit with enough shot no matter where it is hit. I have enjoyed these targets since 2003 when I shoot over-seas...but like the "new fangled" load 2 vests and belts (also encountered in 2003 over-seas) I guess it takes a long time for stuff to travel back to the U.S.

Thank you Kurt for enforcing my post that instead of shooting the stand etc. to make a plate fall,

why not fix the problem with a simple strip of steel on the front of the plate stand.

Anyone who has shot at pistol matches in the last 20 years has seen these stands as standard procedure.

A very cheap easy fix on most any stand I have ever seen.

[Onagoth]

This has happened to me with pistol and I still managed to knock it down (about 10y away). Just keep shooting till if falls or the RO says otherwise.

[MarkCO]

Hie thee to the search function and you will find...

Done. Yep, there are some good reads in there back from 2003 and 2004. The pictures are no longer up on the threads that had them, but yep, they are there. Seeing the names and posts was interesting too. I was talking with another person the other day recounting how long some have been shooting 3 gun, and the obligatory "so whatever happened to xxxx?"

Back on topic...Would you say this in an accurate assesment? For choice plates (SG or pistol) the standing plates with the stand that has the rear bar are probably best. For purely SG plates, angle iron could be substituted.

[kurtm]

Yes Mark those are much prefered if you don't have the good kind!

And while we are here, and another thread brought this up (tactical). Since the 6" square/8" circle represent the "A" zone of our intended target....so to speak..., any hit anywhere in that circle/square should be good. A load of shot that only tears up half a heart would still work I'm told so a plate that turns would still be a "good" hit...shooting it further would only be construed as "execution" or excessive.....(and if you don't see the humor in that a smiley won't help)

[barrysuperhawk]

Shooting a no-choke shotgun, I have turned at least one plate in every match I have been to, I think. While RO'ing stages, I have seen the shooter hit the stand and drop the plate flat onto the top of the stand, I have seen the entire stand rotate and present a 90 degree target. My solution is simple, if it didn't fall, it does not score, and if it is still on the stand, it did not fall.

This isn't an arcade game, and the variability of targets is part of the reason we play this game. When I have been the shooter, most of the time a second shot knocks it off, especially if I have the presence of mind to aim low on it or take a step to get a better angle. If I blast 5-6 shells at it and continue to miss, that's my fault as a competitor for not being accurate enough to begin with. As an RO, I patiently listen to all of the whining and then score it the same as any other. The simple fact is that a weak or offcenter hit might turn the target, so aim better. if you are in a tight enough race that the 5 seconds you earn for missing that steel makes a difference, I guarantee there are 100 other points during the match where you could have done better and failed.

[EkuJustice]

Just use plenty of choke, and hit it square and it will go down. wide open cylinde choke and hosing because you think your pattern is huge isnt the way to go.

[barrysuperhawk]

Just use plenty of choke, and hit it square and it will go down. wide open cylinde choke and hosing because you think your pattern is huge isnt the way to go.

Yah, well, I have been trying since CMMG [and that damnable spinner that wouldn't spin] to come up with Chokes for my gun and as of this morning, I remain a failure at that task. My point is that just because it's sideways, thats not nearly the challenge for a shotgun that it is for a pistol. I spin them alot due to my lack of choke and lack of good aim, but they almost always go down with the second shot if I do my part [which is what I should have done for shot #1, ironically]

[EkuJustice]

what kind of gun did you have you were trying to find chokes for?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Had a shotgun plate turn 90 at the AR15 Pro-Am 3-Gun on Pro Stage 5. I saw the pattern impact the plate and the plate begin to move; assumed (incorrectly) it was going down and shifted my focus to moving down the trail. I had no idea the plate was still up until the RO informed me after ULSC.

Most of the plates we shot at the Pro-Am had the lip on the bottom that prevented turning, but the ones on Stage 5 didn't. No one's fault but my own - I hit it with a marginal amount of pattern and it didn't fall, simple as that.

I did the math and figured out this one 10sec penalty dropped me almost 20 match points (roughly 15-16 spots in the overall standings) - in other words, it took me out of the guns and put me into the flashlights, bullets, non-gun certificates, etc on the prize table.

Oh well, I should have hit it square.

[dmshozer1]

Had a shotgun plate turn 90 at the AR15 Pro-Am 3-Gun on Pro Stage 5. I saw the pattern impact the plate and the plate begin to move; assumed (incorrectly) it was going down and shifted my focus to moving down the trail. I had no idea the plate was still up until the RO informed me after ULSC.

Most of the plates we shot at the Pro-Am had the lip on the bottom that prevented turning, but the ones on Stage 5 didn't. No one's fault but my own - I hit it with a marginal amount of pattern and it didn't fall, simple as that.

I did the math and figured out this one 10sec penalty dropped me almost 20 match points (roughly 15-16 spots in the overall standings) - in other words, it took me out of the guns and put me into the flashlights, bullets, non-gun certificates, etc on the prize table.

Oh well, I should have hit it square.

Perfect example of how a turned plate can cost you big time.

If you hit it enough to turn it, more than likely you had enough pellets on it to knock it off of a properly designed stand.

[mwx40x40]

Had a shotgun plate turn 90 at the AR15 Pro-Am 3-Gun on Pro Stage 5. I saw the pattern impact the plate and the plate begin to move; assumed (incorrectly) it was going down and shifted my focus to moving down the trail. I had no idea the plate was still up until the RO informed me after ULSC.

Most of the plates we shot at the Pro-Am had the lip on the bottom that prevented turning, but the ones on Stage 5 didn't. No one's fault but my own - I hit it with a marginal amount of pattern and it didn't fall, simple as that.

I did the math and figured out this one 10sec penalty dropped me almost 20 match points (roughly 15-16 spots in the overall standings) - in other words, it took me out of the guns and put me into the flashlights, bullets, non-gun certificates, etc on the prize table.

Oh well, I should have hit it square.

Interestingly I had the same thing happen on Stage 5 even shot it a second time. Later as we talked about it, one of the members of the squad questioned if I could have shot it from one of the other shooting areas, since I had already engaged it from the correct shooting area. I imagine it would have still been a penalty and not worth it. However, I cannot agree enough that all knock down plates should be designed as the others in the match.

[Chuck Anderson]

While RO'ing stages, I have seen the shooter hit the stand and drop the plate flat onto the top of the stand... My solution is simple, if it didn't fall, it does not score, and if it is still on the stand, it did not fall.

I've heard this before. If the plate is laying down, it fell. There is nothing in the rules that says plate must fall off stand to score. Just that it must fall. It did. Have you run this past the RMs of the matches you RO, and if so, and they agreed, could you provide a list of these matches so I can make sure I never mistakenly attend one?

[barrysuperhawk]

While RO'ing stages, I have seen the shooter hit the stand and drop the plate flat onto the top of the stand... My solution is simple, if it didn't fall, it does not score, and if it is still on the stand, it did not fall.

I've heard this before. If the plate is laying down, it fell. There is nothing in the rules that says plate must fall off stand to score. Just that it must fall. It did. Have you run this past the RMs of the matches you RO, and if so, and they agreed, could you provide a list of these matches so I can make sure I never mistakenly attend one?

That won't help you, Good luck attending 2 matches in a row that use exactly the same ruleset and scoring methodology. Heck, with 3 gun you are doing well to see the rules applied exactly the same from stage to stage at a big match. A good example was at CMMG this year where they used standing steel as pistol targets on some stages [that did not fall, only "rung"] On Stage 6, if it made noise, it counted, on Stage 8, if you didn't have 2 distinct bullet splats in the paint, you got dinged for a miss, even if you hit the thing 3 times . Some RO's are stricter in their interpretation of the rules than others, but as long as they are consistant from shooter to shooter on their stage, I don't have a problem.

Actually, I think the USPSA style 11.23.2.1.1 rulesmithing "It doesent say it has to fall on the GROUND to score" is bad for 3 gun in general. After all, why did you come to the match? Did you come to shoot and have fun, or did you come to be guaranteed that you would receive a firearm from the price table? If you came just for the gun, it's cheaper and easier to just go buy the damn thing, don't you think? If someone beat you out of a gun over the difference of one turned shotgun plate, it's because they hit the thing squarely and you (almost) missed it. The target was presented exactly the same before either of you pulled the trigger. It's like blaming a drop turner for a loss because you got 2 deltas, and the guy that beat you got 2 Alphas...

Not to stray off subject too much, but how do you score a texas star if the shooter hits the stand with 1 shot and all of the plates fall off [assuming the round expended was appropriate for the array]? There's nothing in the rules that say you have to ONLY knock down ONE plate per shot. Does you opinion change if it was a freak lucky shot or if the competitor was actively gaming the stage and trying for the shot?

[bigbrowndog]

I would have to agree with Chuck on this, if the plate fell it fell, whether its still on the stand or not. as the RM for ProAm I had an RO ask that question and the reply was "it fell"!!!!

Far too often RO's make calls on issues they shouldn't, even after being told not to interpret or read into anything written in the stage brief, and far too many shooters do not know to question such rulings, until its too late and then a RM has to let the ruling stand or throw out stages or give reshoots to everyone that shot the stage prior.

Plates should NEVER be used that will turn w/o falling, its just another item on the long list of poor decisions that get made for one reason or another. If the plate were a clay, and a single pellet went thru it w/o breaking and making the clay "fall" its still a dead clay!!!!

Trapr

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Far too often RO's make calls on issues they shouldn't, even after being told not to interpret or read into anything written in the stage brief, and far too many shooters do not know to question such rulings, until its too late and then a RM has to let the ruling stand or throw out stages or give reshoots to everyone that shot the stage prior.

Trapr

I couldn't agree more, Trapr. I had an RO at the Pro-Am tell me that I couldn't shoot from a doorway position while standing on one leg because it was a "safety issue". This wasn't anywhere in the WSB and wasn't covered in the walk-through. The RO only told me about the "one leg prohibition" rule this when he saw that I could engage all the targets from a doorway and was contemplating doing so. I was the second shooter on the stage and didn't feel like I had time to argue my point or call the MD or RM for a ruling, so I complied and shot it like the RO wanted.

I asked Kurt about this the next day and learned there was no such rule and the RO had apparently made it up on the spot. Kurt offered me a reshoot but I declined; mainly wanted to verify the RO was using a "made up rule" and was full of shit. He was.

[EkuJustice]

I had one like that as well that I asked for a clarification and then it got changed when the RO didnt like how I was going to shoot the stage. Didnt really have time to argue so I went with it but probibally should have as it would have been a nice advantage. I asked on the AM with the door you had to open to shoot the swingers. Was told the door way was free from the ground up till he realized my plan was to hit the dirt and shoot them under the door static.

[barrysuperhawk]

I would have to agree with Chuck on this, if the plate fell it fell, whether its still on the stand or not. as the RM for ProAm I had an RO ask that question and the reply was "it fell"!!!!

Far too often RO's make calls on issues they shouldn't, even after being told not to interpret or read into anything written in the stage brief, and far too many shooters do not know to question such rulings, until its too late and then a RM has to let the ruling stand or throw out stages or give reshoots to everyone that shot the stage prior.

Plates should NEVER be used that will turn w/o falling, its just another item on the long list of poor decisions that get made for one reason or another. If the plate were a clay, and a single pellet went thru it w/o breaking and making the clay "fall" its still a dead clay!!!!

Trapr

Trapr, your own signature line says "ALL STEEL SHOULD FALL."

Ok, I realize I am in a minority here advocating a fairly strict interpretation of the existing rules, and despite some opinions to the contrary, I don't take it personally. Hell, I was the RO that had a shooter blast a 5" plate and base into 3 pieces with a slug from about 8 yards in front of me and then got overruled on the SAFETY issue, so I understand that strict RO's are not popular RO's.

That said, I have to point out that the "must fall to score" rule was not mine, it came straight from the MD's mouth. Every RO has made a bad call at some point, but once you have made it, it's also unfair to not be consistent with every shooter. It's human nature to push boundaries. Sometimes there are targets that just don't cooperate. A good example of this was the spinner from CMMG this year. I have video of me getiing 6 fairly solid hits and the blasted thing refused to move. *I* was the one that tried to move it with #8 shot out of a Cyl bore shotgun and failed, so it is my fault that it did not move. I hit the thing, I just couldnt hit it hard enough. I suppose it could be argued that since I hit it, I should get credit for it, despite the fact my hits were wimpy at best. I didn't argue that, but it is a point.

One important point to note though, is that after the match with the flipped plate landing on the stand, I have intentionally made sure to set my stage with every plate stand leaning backward slightly, so almost any hit works and you almost cant spin one. It makes them a little harder to reset, but it fixes 99% of these problems. The standard I use is the back edge of the top of the plate is plumb with the back edge of the foot, maybe 5-6 degrees of angle backward.

The flip side is that if you, as a shooter, take enough time to make sure every target is neutralized, is it really fair to YOU if the next shooter blasts through and gets credit for turned plates [that were the result of poor accuracy] and beats you on time? On paper targets, accuracy is rewarded and lack of accuracy is penalized [although less so in 3 gun than USPSA] A "D" hit [the result of poor accracy] does not count for as much as an "A", so why should a turned shotgun plate [the result of poor accracy] count the same as a solid hit that blasted the plate 10 feet?

Edited September 4, 2012 by barrysuperhawk