Help/Advice needed on how to proceed with poor shooting rifle

[trevoro]

Hi,

I bought a used Salient Arms 16" 1:7 AR off the classifieds here a while back. The rifle supposedly only had a few hundred rounds through it. I absolutely love the gun, and it looks to be in great condition to my untrained eye. The only problem is that I haven't found anything it will shoot better than 2.5 moa. I've tried several varieties of 55g, 69gr and 75gr loads (both factory and handloads). The groups are splattered all around the target in 2.5-4 inch circles

When ejecting a live round, there are relatively deep gouges from the feed ramp in the bullet. The gouges happen when feeding up both ramps and look like Nike swooshes. I don't know if this hurts accuracy, but it can't be good. Should I get in there with a file? The only other thing about the rifle I've noticed is that there is a fairly major leak in the gas block, and I can feel the gas hole when running a bore brush through the barrel. I don't know if this is normal or not.

I've called Salient Arms a half dozen times over the last three weeks. I haven't gotten through, though I've left a message each time. They did return my call once. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to pick up. Arghhh! Are they still in business? Selling to individuals? Supporting their products? I can't tell.

I don't know of any local gun smiths, and I can't bring myself to resell a gun that doesn't shoot straight.

I've got a Leupold MR/T 1.5-5 on there. I suppose it is possible that the scope is the culprit, though I think it unlikely.

Anyway, I'm looking for advice from anyone out there more experienced with ARs than me (virtually everyone). I'll appreciate anything you have to say.

Thanks,

Trevor

Edited June 28, 2012 by trevoro

[StealthyBlagga]

Try hand-feeding the rounds individually direct into the chamber and shooting groups to confirm whether the scratches are affecting accuracy. If the groups tighten, you just have to find the burr that is causing the problem and remove it with a stone. If it still shoots like crap, send it to Salient to have a look. A company like that should be jealously protecting its reputation, so I am sure they will do the right thing.

[Religious Shooter]

My JP scratches the bullet.

Forget about Salient. IMHO they are dead.

Give it to a good local smith.

I would suggest letting a good shooter shoot it to see if it is you. But you are TrevorO. So I won't.

[trevoro]

Haha. Such simple, perfect advice. I never would have thought of that. : )

Thanks! I'll try it tomorrow and post an update.

I think I'll also throw a different scope on it as step 2 if the above doesn't change anything.

I have the same expectations of Salient. I'm sure they will hold up their end if I can ever get in touch with them. The actual problem may have nothing to do with the product that left their shop, but I'd love to have their input. I'd actually love to ship the upper back to them, whether it be a free fix or not. I haven't tried e-mail, so I'll do that tonight.

[trevoro]

My JP scratches the bullet.

Forget about Salient. IMHO they are dead.

Give it to a good local smith.

I would suggest letting a good shooter shoot it to see if it is you. But you are TrevorO. So I won't.

Haha. I assume you know me well enough to know I wouldn't take the advice to give it to a good shooter. Are .15 splits about right for shooting groups? : )

That's too bad to hear about Salient's death. I assumed they were still kicking after seeing 3k dollar Glocks on TopShot recently.

So I guess your JP shoots straight even with the scratches? I should have kept mine. : (

I'll try what's been suggested and then look for a local smith.

[Sleepswithdogs]

My JP scratches the bullet.

Forget about Salient. IMHO they are dead.

Give it to a good local smith.

I would suggest letting a good shooter shoot it to see if it is you. But you are TrevorO. So I won't.

Haha. I assume you know me well enough to know I wouldn't take the advice to give it to a good shooter. Are .15 splits about right for shooting groups? : )

That's too bad to hear about Salient's death. I assumed they were still kicking after seeing 3k dollar Glocks on TopShot recently.

So I guess your JP shoots straight even with the scratches? I should have kept mine. : (

I'll try what's been suggested and then look for a local smith.

Scratches can't be good for accuracy. The suggestion to hand feed was very good. A different scope would be interesting, especially if was a quality one, but if not available, some serous bench resting might suffice. I was having trouble with my Mini and started at 50'. Starting at such a short distance on the bench really took most of the human factor out of it. I would have moved the target back in increments but it was so apparent at 50' that there was a serious problem I didn't need to. Turned out that the muzzle brake had been improperly installed and was a real mess, way beyond my pay grade. Took a very good local smith to fix the problem.

Tar

Edited June 28, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs

[boomfab]

The bullets of the live rounds are getting scratched during manual ejection, not chambering. The ejector pushes the round off center during ejection. If there is a bullet on the end of the case, it gets scratched. Every AR15 does this. It is normal.

[dmshozer1]

The bullets of the live rounds are getting scratched during manual ejection, not chambering. The ejector pushes the round off center during ejection. If there is a bullet on the end of the case, it gets scratched. Every AR15 does this. It is normal.

100% correct!

Accuracy is most affected by the back of the bullet and the crown on the barrel.

Look at Sierra H.P. match 69's. A known great bullet. The H.P.'s are irregular but the boatail is perfect!

[HRider]

You didn't say what kind of comp/flashider (if any) was attached to the barrel. I had a comp start blowing out on my AR10 (metal was too thin before the first port) that caused groups to open up. Check the alignment of any muzzle device to make sure that you are not getting bullet strikes. Also, check the crown to make sure that there is not a carbon build up on it. Carbon on the crown will make groups open up.

Hurley

[trevoro]

Well, I got in touch with Salient today and talked to the owner. His point of view about things in general and about customer service specifically is far above the norm in my book. Even though Salient wasn't directly responsible for this rifle, he is stepping up in a big way to help me out. I really appreciate it.

It turns out this is a parts gun and wasn't built by Salient at all. After my short interaction with the owner today, I'd be happy to scrap this rifle and buy a new one from him. I've sent the complete rifle to Salient and I'm confident I'll be happy with the result.

Thanks for all the advice here.

Trevor

[blue edge]

Well, I got in touch with Salient today and talked to the owner. His point of view about things in general and about customer service specifically is far above the norm in my book. Even though Salient wasn't directly responsible for this rifle, he is stepping up in a big way to help me out. I really appreciate it.

It turns out this is a parts gun and wasn't built by Salient at all. After my short interaction with the owner today, I'd be happy to scrap this rifle and buy a new one from him. I've sent the complete rifle to Salient and I'm confident I'll be happy with the result.

Thanks for all the advice here.

Trevor

GooD TIMES

[RH45]

Well, I got in touch with Salient today and talked to the owner. His point of view about things in general and about customer service specifically is far above the norm in my book. Even though Salient wasn't directly responsible for this rifle, he is stepping up in a big way to help me out. I really appreciate it.

It turns out this is a parts gun and wasn't built by Salient at all. After my short interaction with the owner today, I'd be happy to scrap this rifle and buy a new one from him. I've sent the complete rifle to Salient and I'm confident I'll be happy with the result.

Thanks for all the advice here.

Trevor

Let us know what they found.

[trevoro]

They inspected the rifle and took it to the range. The barrel was completely shot out.

Salient is putting a new one in, and I'm excited to have it back soon. : )

[HOA]

You may want to send the previous owner a " thank you" note for misrepresenting the condition of the gun. If it was sold as a factory built, low round rifle, I would pretty upset.

[Sleepswithdogs]

They inspected the rifle and took it to the range. The barrel was completely shot out.

Salient is putting a new one in, and I'm excited to have it back soon. : )

Could you post more on the interaction with Salient? What kind of price are they giving you on your new barrel, etc.

Thanks,

Tar

[outerlimits]

Hopefully they put on a new gas tube as well. If gas escapes there, only a matter of time till it breaks and you have a bolt gun...ask me how I know.

[trevoro]

I didn't want to post any of this, especially not until I got confirmation that there is actually something wrong with the gun that can't be explained by my shooting or by something that might have happened during shipping. I still don't like posting this, but I think the body of evidence points to dishonesty in the classified forums, and that should probably be public information. I just don't see how it is possible that this rifle was shooting well for the previous owner. Below is enough information for you to draw your own conclusions. I edited out one sentence that I just don't feel right about making public. Salient is not charging me for the new barrel, and I have continued to be impressed by my interaction with them.

Hi Alan,

After doing everything possibly to get this rifle to shoot straight (better than 3 in groups at 100 yards), I contacted Salient Arms International. I found out the rifle was not built by them. I'm guessing it was put together by XXXX from parts. That doesn't make it a Salient gun as you advertised it. I'd be ok with that if only it shot well. It doesn't. Before I slander you on the forums, I'm giving you a chance to respond.

Looking for help in figuring out what was going on with the rifle, I started this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154819&st=0&gopid=1733429entry1733429

Below is the post I'm waiting to submit pending your reply:

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I had planned to follow it, but now I'll be shipping the gun off instead.

I reached the owner of Salient Arms today. He was fantastic to deal with, but the bottom line is that this rifle was not built by Salient Arms. How it got engraved as such is a subject for them to look into and for me to forget about. I do not want a gun with their brand that isn't their product, and I'm sure they don't want the gun on the market either. I'll be shipping it to them tomorrow. Unbelievably, they are stepping up to help me even though they have no obligation to do so. Adrian's outlook generally and on "customer" service specifically was impressive and above the norm. Based on that interaction, I'm tempted to scrap this rifle and buy a real one. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, financial sense is still somewhat alive in me.

I don't know exactly what to expect at the end of this process, but since Salient wouldn't have sent the rifle out the door with their name on it to begin with, which they didn't, I'm going to let them know it is ok with me that they remove the Salient etching. Despite everything, I've still got some good parts. With the addition of a good barrel, I'll have a nice rifle.

The gun was advertised on this forum incorrectly as a Salient Arms International built rifle. I think the person I bought it from may have been misled by the person he bought it from. I have no hard feelings about that. The following, on the other hand, I am pretty steamed about.

"Well at 400 yards it groups in the 1" range off the bipod and the scope your looking at as it is a 6.5x20 x 50 EFR that has been boosted or doubled by premier reticle....I use that scope on my Anshutz for silhouette. The barrel I think came from Larue, Length of the gas system have no idea. I know it has a adjustable gas block as XXXX was adjusting it when the gun was delivered as I test fired it." -- Alan

"Hi Alan, One question. You said 1" at 400 yards. I assume you were trying to say 1 moa out to 400 yards, making the 400 yard group 4 inches? Have you ever shot for groups at 100 yards? If there is any way you can find out the make of the barrel, I'd appreciate it." -- Trevor

"Yeah 4 inch groups are a breeze at 400 yards. I am not a bench rest guy. I was shooting at 1" stickers on 6" plates at 400 yards...." -- Alan

If it sounds too good to be true, I guess it is. : ) Live and learn. Education is expensive.

Hi Trevor.

I purchased the gun from XXXX XXXXX.

It was sold to me as being assembled by Sailent Arms and the engraving on the rifle matched my M2 also built by Sailent Arms it was purchased by XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX. That is about all I know.

How the gun is grouping for you is not what I experienced. I found it to pull very tight groups and repeatable 90% of my shooting of that rifle was with a high power scope which is a 14.5x35x50 primer reticle bumped leupold and a bipod and federal match ammo not a 1-5x40 the difference between the two is considerable with regard to results.

I had good dealings with Sailent, and XXXX and that rifle.

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly Alan. I've shot many, many 1/2 inch groups with 4 power scopes on previous rifles (both JPs). This scope has a 1/2 moa dot in the center and is actually quite good for shooting groups targeting a 1/2 inch dot.

In any case, after talking to Salient, I figured XXXX had sold you the rifle and that Salient hadn't. [sentence removed] Whoever put the engraving on this rifle didn't have permission to do it, and the rifle isn't in the books as a gun Salient worked on officially.

I have no way of knowing what is going on other than that my experience with you has been nothing but positive. My experience with Salient has been nothing but positive. My experience with the rifle is the only negative. I'll simply post that the rifle is on its way back to Salient to be looked at.

Thank you again for getting back to me with additional data. I believe you and believe that Salient will make good on XXXX's shady transaction. Sorry my panties were in a bunch there for a moment. : )

Sincerely,

Trevor

Trevor:

No worries about the panties in a bunch thing.

Best of luck with the rifle.

[trevoro]

Original sale thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=151992&st=0&p=1704078&hl=sailent&fromsearch=1entry1704078

[Sleepswithdogs]

Original sale thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=151992&st=0&p=1704078&hl=sailent&fromsearch=1entry1704078

Seems Alan didn't know much about the rifle, and likely only bought it and sold it. I'd guess it was put together from parts rather than someone faked a Salient logo on to it, but that is just a guess on my part as I wouldn't think there was much profit in Salient knockoff's but I really don't know.

When my Mini was jacked around with a bad muzzle brake I didn't know it was the brake at first. Our matches were all short range, less than 100', and I just assumed I was at fault for my poor scores. I had been shooting well before the brake but didn't put 2 and 2 together. Didn't find out the rifle was at fault until my sis came to town for Christmas and I took her to the range to shoot. She couldn't hit squat with the rifle and she is normally a very good shot, so I said, "here, let me show you..." 16" random groups at 50' was the best either of us could do even bench rested. Seems few things screw up a rifle worse than a bad crown or muzzle.

Could it be the truth lies somewhere in the middle? Perhaps Alan fudged his shooting abilities and blamed the poor groupings on himself? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so perhaps I'm just hoping someone didn't just flat out lie about how the rifle shot.

I am very impressed with Salient's handling of the situation. If I ever get well off enough to have a "store bought" gun, I'll surely be looking at them.

Thanks for the updates,

Tar

[trevoro]

Alan was very specific about how the rifle was shooting for him. It is possible that he meant to say 40 yards. If he repeatedly added an extra 0 to 40 by accident, that typo would explain everything.

Salient has only officially worked on one SunDevil lower. The one I bought was not that lower. This was a parts gun, but the parts weren't produced or sanctioned by Salient. I know exactly who sold Alan the rifle, who put the logo on, etc. I'm ready for this thread to die though. No point in dragging anybody into this that I didn't have direct interaction with.

In the end, because of Salient, I got a great deal on a great rifle.

Thanks, guys.

[OUshooter]

It's good to hear that Salient is manned by some solid folks. It also sounds like a forum member needs flogged. I'm glad it ended up with you having the long end of the stick.

[Sleepswithdogs]

Alan was very specific about how the rifle was shooting for him. It is possible that he meant to say 40 yards. If he repeatedly added an extra 0 to 40 by accident, that typo would explain everything.

Salient has only officially worked on one SunDevil lower. The one I bought was not that lower. This was a parts gun, but the parts weren't produced or sanctioned by Salient. I know exactly who sold Alan the rifle, who put the logo on, etc. I'm ready for this thread to die though. No point in dragging anybody into this that I didn't have direct interaction with.

In the end, because of Salient, I got a great deal on a great rifle.

Thanks, guys.

WOW, faking a Salient rifle. That is LOW! Thanks for clearing that up, it does remove the doubt about the situation.

Tar

[bagdrag]

It's good to hear that Salient is manned by some solid folks. It also sounds like a forum member needs flogged. I'm glad it ended up with you having the long end of the stick.

So who deserves the flogging? Kudos to Salient but the member to blame needs to be named (or is that against forum policy). Forging a Salient and then selling it as such sounds like criminal fraudulence.

[trevoro]

This will by my last post on the topic. If you have any specific questions, you can PM me. Thanks again for all your help!

Trevor

See the video below of how the rifle is shooting after coming back from Salient:

Edited August 19, 2012 by trevoro