Polymer Lower for 3 gun?

[AznDragon533]

I was wondering, are there any cons to a Polymer lower for 3 gun? I want to build the lightest AR possible..

thinking about

LW-15 Polymer AR-15

if not a Polymer Lower, what Brand of Lower would be best for 3 gun?

Edited June 4, 2012 by AznDragon533

[9X23Guy]

3 gun rifles are hard use high mileage rifles. I cannot see where this would work out for any serious competitor. As for the video, wow. The RO side of me wants to cringe whether they say "clear" or not. Almost anything can hold together long enough to shoot one hundred rounds and getting thrown on the ground.

Edited June 4, 2012 by 9X23Guy

[Chuck Anderson]

Buddy of mine just bought one. Brought it up last week. He's selling it this week. I was surprised how well the Cav Arms stuff held up, but it really seemed to hold up well. This stuff looks like junk. Might hold up really well, but I'm not going to be the one to try it.

The AR lower receiver itself, really the only thing this is cutting weight on, doesn't weigh that much to begin with. Wouldn't spend my money on it. But who knows, could turn out to be Cav Arms quality.

[DocMedic]

Hmm interesting, but it's only 1/2 lb lighter than a forged lower receiver. You got to ask yourself, is it worth it?

[Sleepswithdogs]

The New Frontier lowers I have seen look great, and I'm looking forward to building one for 3gun later this year. My concern is not 3gun, but rather will it hold up when used as a martial arts staff in a home defense situation. A 1911 makes a great club and doesn't shoot bad either. The butt of a rifle makes a very good weapon, and in a CQC situation, may deliver the first blow when there are multiple attackers at very close distances. I'm not sure if the polymer is up to this level of use, but like the Glock, I'm happy to be pleasantly surprised. Or if nothing else, the cost to replace it is quite small, the real money is in the trigger, upper and upper components, all of which are easily transferred if any problems should arise.

I don't think they are ready for combat in some war someplace, but they are making airplanes out of composite these days, and I don't think an AR lower is a big stretch. I may be wrong but, I'm not betting my life on it either.

You know, if this were 1940, we'd be discussing whether an aluminum rifle component could hold up, and many would be saying, "only steel is real!"

Of course, your getting this from someone who sleeps with dogs, so...

TAR

Edited June 4, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs

[AznDragon533]

Buddy of mine just bought one. Brought it up last week. He's selling it this week. I was surprised how well the Cav Arms stuff held up, but it really seemed to hold up well. This stuff looks like junk. Might hold up really well, but I'm not going to be the one to try it.

The AR lower receiver itself, really the only thing this is cutting weight on, doesn't weigh that much to begin with. Wouldn't spend my money on it. But who knows, could turn out to be Cav Arms quality.

Any particular reason hes selling it? My logic..is ..if a glock is polymer and can last that long...an Ar should too..

[DocMedic]

Buddy of mine just bought one. Brought it up last week. He's selling it this week. I was surprised how well the Cav Arms stuff held up, but it really seemed to hold up well. This stuff looks like junk. Might hold up really well, but I'm not going to be the one to try it.

The AR lower receiver itself, really the only thing this is cutting weight on, doesn't weigh that much to begin with. Wouldn't spend my money on it. But who knows, could turn out to be Cav Arms quality.

Any particular reason hes selling it? My logic..is ..if a glock is polymer and can last that long...an Ar should too..

You're also not asking a glock to hit targets 400+ yards either...

[Alaskapopo]

Buddy of mine just bought one. Brought it up last week. He's selling it this week. I was surprised how well the Cav Arms stuff held up, but it really seemed to hold up well. This stuff looks like junk. Might hold up really well, but I'm not going to be the one to try it.

The AR lower receiver itself, really the only thing this is cutting weight on, doesn't weigh that much to begin with. Wouldn't spend my money on it. But who knows, could turn out to be Cav Arms quality.

Any particular reason hes selling it? My logic..is ..if a glock is polymer and can last that long...an Ar should too..

Not all polimer is created equal.

pat

[TRUBL]

Do a search for plumb crazy lowers breaking....

I saw 3....one seemed to be from an over torqued castle nut, another was actually a umerex 22lr AR15 (Colt) and the last one was ugly....like from an upper blowing up or something, no one really said anything.

I did see lots of the old cast aluminum lowers that were broken though.

I use one with a 22LR upper for Ruger Rimfire to get a 3.5 pound rifle. Still not totally convienced that they are worth trying to make up into a 3gun rifle. If cost is your issue....save up a little more money. As for weight, you really won't save a lot.

[PistoleroJesse]

Buddy of mine just bought one. Brought it up last week. He's selling it this week. I was surprised how well the Cav Arms stuff held up, but it really seemed to hold up well. This stuff looks like junk. Might hold up really well, but I'm not going to be the one to try it.

The AR lower receiver itself, really the only thing this is cutting weight on, doesn't weigh that much to begin with. Wouldn't spend my money on it. But who knows, could turn out to be Cav Arms quality.

Any particular reason hes selling it? My logic..is ..if a glock is polymer and can last that long...an Ar should too..

You're also not asking a glock to hit targets 400+ yards either...

I was led to believe that the only things that really mattered to Camp Perry types are the barrel and the trigger and the sight. So I while a bit valid for fit and wobble, I don't think you argument holds all that much water considering people win with Colts and their fit is not always the greatest.

[MarkCO]

I have 3 of the Cavalry Arms lowers and I have done some testing on the Plum Crazy and Frontier. There are some very important differences between the Cav Arms lowers and the rest. The Cav arms use an integral stock, so there is no stress riser on the threaded stock attachment like these others. Next, Cav Arms thickened the lowers in several locations to alleviate the flex and stress concentrations, again not so with these others. The polymer does flex a lot more than an aluminum lower, so to be safe with a component trigger system, you have to make sure that all the engagements are MORE than adequate or you can have some very real problems. A Mil-Spec trigger or a complete drop in is the only way to go.

While I am a fan of lightweight ARs for some situations, a polymer lower does not get you the balance that is necessary unless you go with a 14" or 16" pencil barrel and a very light handguard. Then you end up with a pretty jumpy rifle. The first few polymer lower ARs I shot were all way too front heavy.

The .450 BM they fire in the video has a Ross Comp and an adjustable gas block, so it may or may not be a valid test. When I tried the .450 BM on a Cav Arms lower, which is MUCH stronger, the magazine auto-ejected with every round fired.

IMHO, not a good idea for a 3Gun rifle. For a practice .22 RF, maybe.

Wish someone would just buy the patents or whatever and resurect the Cav Arms lowers.

[Bryan 45]

Wish someone would just buy the patents or whatever and resurect the Cav Arms lowers.

Mark, I remember only enough info to be dangerous, but all the Cav Arms equipment was sold and shipped to another company. I don't know if they are in production yet or not.

EDIT- Gotta love Google:

http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii.html

Edited June 4, 2012 by Bryan 45

[CJW]

My g/f bought an AR-15 on the lines of MarkCO's setup with a Cav Arms lower. It is definitely light, and seems plenty durable enough for 3-Gun. On the other hand, once you get to the point of wanting to do some customizing, there are limits. Want to change stocks or grips? Not going to happen with a Cav Arms. Also, saving weight at the back end is not necessarily all that great, as it leaves the barrel as the single heaviest thing on the gun.

It shoots great, but I think she is going to end up building out a standard AR-15 lower and then relegate the Cav Arms to a backup gun.

[MarkCO]

Mark, I remember only enough info to be dangerous, but all the Cav Arms equipment was sold and shipped to another company. I don't know if they are in production yet or not.

EDIT- Gotta love Google:

http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii.html

Cool. Price is a bit more, but I do hope they are succesful.

[AznDragon533]

There seems to be an agreement on a No to Polymer lowers.

if So, What brand of Lower do you guys recommend for my 3 gun AR 556/223 set up?

[MarkCO]

There seems to be an agreement on a No to Polymer lowers.

if So, What brand of Lower do you guys recommend for my 3 gun AR 556/223 set up?

Forged...Firebird or JP.

Billet...SunDevil, Seekins, Lancer, Predator Tactical

[AznDragon533]

There seems to be an agreement on a No to Polymer lowers.

if So, What brand of Lower do you guys recommend for my 3 gun AR 556/223 set up?

Forged...Firebird or JP.

Billet...SunDevil, Seekins, Lancer, Predator Tactical

lets assume you can only have 1 Ar lower for the rest of your life...please advise.

[MarkCO]

There seems to be an agreement on a No to Polymer lowers.

if So, What brand of Lower do you guys recommend for my 3 gun AR 556/223 set up?

Forged...Firebird or JP.

Billet...SunDevil, Seekins, Lancer, Predator Tactical

lets assume you can only have 1 Ar lower for the rest of your life...please advise.

Man that hurts...I would be happy with any of the 6 I mentioned.

Billet is a tad heavier, and stronger, so since I shoot heavy calibers in the AR platform, I would go for a billet. The Seekins and Lancer have right side bolt release and the Lancer has the ability to change the mag wells...but I still can't choose only one...

[Chuck Anderson]

Buddy of mine just bought one. Brought it up last week. He's selling it this week. I was surprised how well the Cav Arms stuff held up, but it really seemed to hold up well. This stuff looks like junk. Might hold up really well, but I'm not going to be the one to try it.

The AR lower receiver itself, really the only thing this is cutting weight on, doesn't weigh that much to begin with. Wouldn't spend my money on it. But who knows, could turn out to be Cav Arms quality.

Any particular reason hes selling it? My logic..is ..if a glock is polymer and can last that long...an Ar should too..

There is a difference. A big difference in the polymer used in a Glock and this stuff. The take down pins, as well as the trigger pins are plastic. The takedown pins didn't look like you could replace them with standard metal pins either. The trigger was interesting but not anything I would use. The spot where the stock mounted to the receiver did not look like it would hold up. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[1time]

I bought a Plum Crazy to give it a try. I have around 1500 rounds through it with a BCM lightweight 16" upper. It is holding up well so far but I use it like a toy. I wouldn't buy one for my only AR and its not worth it crapping out at a match either.

It weighs 6.5 lbs. I don't have an experience with Loki but They have a good reputation and they sell an 18" AR set up for the sport that is just 2oz heavier. If you want lightweight that's where I would start.

[Griz]

lets assume you can only have 1 Ar lower for the rest of your life...please advise.

That's easy. It's heavy and not the best choice for 3-gun, but if I can only have one and it has to last forever, the only choice is a stainless steel Group Industries registered receiver.

For 3-gun, just get whichever one has the roll mark you like. With very few exceptions, any lower from a reputable manufacturer is just fine and many of them come from the same 2-3 manufacturers anyway.

I'd avoid billet lowers for 3-gun as the extra weight buys you no quantifiable advantage.

[spd522]

I have 4 of the Cav Arms style lowers that are marked Eagle Arms by Armalite. CMMG sold them a few years back. I am not sure of the details of how they came to be marked as such but I thought it was unique enough to pick some up.

I put one together with a 16" 1/12 twist pencil barrel, MOE forearm, and a ProPoint red dot. Mostly it's used with a .22LR conversion for fun although a switch of the bolt and it's .223 time. Runs fine both ways and is very light.

Another got a similar barrel but 20 " with a Clark carbon fiber forearm. It's amazingly light, even with the cheap 6-24 scope. Mostly set up for coyotes and prairie dogs, I have yet to take it hunting.

One was used with a magwell adapter for 9mm for a while. It was OK for that too but I went a different way with the 9mm so it's back to being a bare receiver.

The 4th receiver has never been assembled.

I figure I may use the two blanks for building more .22 rifles for the grandkids when they get older.

From my bit of experience with them, all std AR parts seem to fit fine and were simple to assemble.

Craig

[Bryan 45]

Cav Arms also made some for Sabre, not long before both companies went kaput. They have the Thundercat logo on them just like Sabres forged lowers.

[deputygene]

I have a Plum Crazy lower. Got the upper in trade for training, set it up with a Bushnell scope for hunting. Decided to use it when I wanted to try three gun. About 1500 rounds so far, no problems. The fit to upper is tight with no play, the trigger is crisp. Three matches so far, numerous hunting trips and two training classes. I have had no problems.

[KSwift]

The "throwing torture test" was pretty pathetic in that video. As others have said, tossing the gun on the ground is nothing.

But running it over with the F150 is a pretty staunch claim of strength.

If you're really going for weight reduction, it doesn't make much sense to just get a poly lower, you ought to be lightening the whole rifle.

When my GF wanted to shoot 3-gun with me I got her a Bushmaster Carbon-15, the upper & lower are polymer, and the whole thing ended up at like 5 lbs after I was done with it, INCLUDING optics.

So if you want to get the lightest AR, you need a poly upper as well, just the lower doesn't do much.

Edited June 7, 2012 by KSwift