Starting outside the shooting area heels on marks

[a matt]

Is one foot in one foot out, heels on X a legal start? The argument is if a shot was fired from this position ( one in one out ) the shooter is called out. Why not start this way? Sometimes it a nice advantage u don't need to turn, and sometimes the push off is quicker. I have watched this done but not tried it. It was done at a sectional no less.

Edited April 6, 2012 by a matt

[Schutzenmeister]

There's nothing in our book as it is generally intrepretated which would preclude what you describe ... Though my personal opinion is "Why?" (I know, I'm in the minority.) I personally view it as a "gotcha" kind of start for the poor dumb sap who's paying more attention to the targets and shooting than he is to his feet and choreography. (Again, just my opinion.)

If you really want the shooter to have to move after the start signal and prior to firing the first shot, why not set it up such that he simply cannot see any targets until after he moves. Then you can start him inside the shooting area and not have to mess with little non-shooting mind games and the timing of his draw being faster than his feet.

[Mark R]

Your description doen's match the thread title...if standing outside the fault lines, how can you have one foot in?

Just askin'.

[sperman]

Here is the Start Position from the stage in question.

Standing outside shooting area, heels touching marks, hands relaxed at sides.

I was CRO on the stage, and will be happy to offer insight on how the decision was made, but I would like to see some opinions first.

[Too_Slow]

Mark R According to rule 10.2.1 if you have one foot on the ground or on something outside of the shooting area you are considered to be outside the shooting area and penalties are given. This also applies if you are getting support (holding onto a wall or prop) that is outside the shooting area.

Brian

[Corey]

Why would you want to start with one foot in the area and one foot out? If both heel have to touch the marks (the WSB says that plain as day) then your then your feet would be pointing in opposite directions, maybe not at 180*, but still uncomfortable and I'm betting slower than if you'd just stand outside the shooting area facing uprange like the WSB is intending ( I know, intent means nothing in our game, but there comes a point in time where common sense has to take over too).

I'm all for gaming anything I can out of stages, ask anyone I shoot with, but why not just start like the stage designer wants and have a good time?

[Skydiver]

Why would you want to start with one foot in the area and one foot out? If both heel have to touch the marks (the WSB says that plain as day) then your then your feet would be pointing in opposite directions, maybe not at 180*, but still uncomfortable and I'm betting slower than if you'd just stand outside the shooting area facing uprange like the WSB is intending ( I know, intent means nothing in our game, but there comes a point in time where common sense has to take over too).

I'm all for gaming anything I can out of stages, ask anyone I shoot with, but why not just start like the stage designer wants and have a good time?

Ah, but you read more into the WSB than there was... all that was required was standing outside the shooting area with the heels touching marks. It said nothing about facing uprange.

Depending on the course layout, there maybe an advantage to having one foot on the ground with the heel touching the marks, and having another foot on the fault line at 90 degrees to the first foot. Take the stage below for example if the WSB only required "standing outside the shooting area with heels touching marks" as the start position.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Skydiver

[remoandiris]

If the marks are on the outside of the fault lines, FIXT!

[Joe4d]

yeh you wouldnt need to be in a balerina pose, Id start that stage facing the two targets, left foot in the shooting area or ontop of fault line depending if X went all the way across the board. My left foot would be outside the fault. Inside heal touching X, draw and step off with left foot, as soon as my left foot lifts I am "IN" the shooting area as I am no longer out.

[Nik Habicht]

Here is the Start Position from the stage in question.

Standing outside shooting area, heels touching marks, hands relaxed at sides.

I was CRO on the stage, and will be happy to offer insight on how the decision was made, but I would like to see some opinions first.

If I was RMing the match, I'd want to see that clarified prior to first shot -- but that may just be me.....

My definition of a great RM performance is if the RM doesn't have to do anything during the match but calibrate steel, and maybe look at a few close calls on targets....

[sperman]

If I had it to do over again, I would have called for the RM before the first shot and asked to have the WSB modified.

I showed up on Friday expecting to be a competitor. Even after finding out that the squad's on Friday would RO themselves, I still wasn't thinking about debugging the stage. I learn something every time I work a match. This is another of those valuable lessons.

[remoandiris]

If I was RMing the match, I'd want to see that clarified prior to first shot -- but that may just be me.....

My definition of a great RM performance is if the RM doesn't have to do anything during the match but calibrate steel, and maybe look at a few close calls on targets....

This reminds me of the recent thread on engaging targets where visible. I mentioned "gamers" in that thread. This is one of those times where a gamer would pout, whine and cry when they were told to reshoot because they gamed the starting position and the RM called it a forbidden action. And before anyone chimes in and says it isn't gaming, it is following the rules...I say BULLSH!T. It IS gaming.

For those of us who like WSBs that say start here and shoot, this is why they can't always be that way.

Edited April 7, 2012 by remoandiris

[SLM]

Here is the Start Position from the stage in question.

Standing outside shooting area, heels touching marks, hands relaxed at sides.

I was CRO on the stage, and will be happy to offer insight on how the decision was made, but I would like to see some opinions first.

If I was RMing the match, I'd want to see that clarified prior to first shot -- but that may just be me.....

My definition of a great RM performance is if the RM doesn't have to do anything during the match but calibrate steel, and maybe look at a few close calls on targets....

The marks are obviously outside the shooting area and the WSB says heels (plural) touching marks. I guess you could be standing on the fault lines and have your heels touch the marks if your ankles are freaky flexible but there would be no way to have one foot inside the fault lines and have "heels touching marks" when the marks are outside that I can come up with. :confused:

[sperman]

The stage Skydiver posted is not the stage I worked. But even if it were, I've never seen 2 x's painted on the ground. A mark on top of the fault line can be touched on either side of the fault line.

Despite the word's widespread use, there is no such thing as "gaming" in our sport. There is legal and there is illegal. If you don't like the way someone interprets your start position, learn to write a better WSB. (This isn't meant as a general statement, and not intended at anyone specific or any specific stage.)

[ima45dv8]

"Hi. My name is Mark and I'm a Gamer."

Until USPSA mandates a 12-Step program to prevent it, I will be.

[Skydiver]

The stage Skydiver posted is not the stage I worked. But even if it were, I've never seen 2 x's painted on the ground. A mark on top of the fault line can be touched on either side of the fault line.

Despite the word's widespread use, there is no such thing as "gaming" in our sport. There is legal and there is illegal. If you don't like the way someone interprets your start position, learn to write a better WSB. (This isn't meant as a general statement, and not intended at anyone specific or any specific stage.)

Yup, the marks would have been painted on the fault line and therefore allow for some creative start positions. Of course, when I wrote my WSB for that illustrative stage I posted, I had also made the start position "Standing outside shooting area, facing directly uprange with heels touching marks."

I've got two points of curiousity:

- how did you end up becoming CRO for the stage the OP was talking about when you arrived at the match expecting to be a competitor?

- during the discussion at the match, was there any talk about having to "establish" yourself as being "in"? (i.e. echoes of many threads past about shooting while in the air.)

[Tim/GA]

The stage Skydiver posted is not the stage I worked. But even if it were, I've never seen 2 x's painted on the ground. A mark on top of the fault line can be touched on either side of the fault line.

Despite the word's widespread use, there is no such thing as "gaming" in our sport. There is legal and there is illegal. If you don't like the way someone interprets your start position, learn to write a better WSB. (This isn't meant as a general statement, and not intended at anyone specific or any specific stage.)

I was on your 2nd squad of the day on Sat.- the one when the rain really decided to show up! From my standpoint you all did it just right. You read the stage brief, answered questions and then let the shooters decide how to go about it. It was fun to watch all of the variations on foot placement and start position and I felt that the stage designer had left it that way on purpose since a simple "facing uprange,heels touching marks" would have mandated a start position that was the same for all. The way it was written left some flexibility.

And thanks to you and all of the ROs for working the match. You all made it a great one to shoot!

Edited April 7, 2012 by Tim/GA

[old506]

I guess I just don't understand why we would want the WSB to be air tight all the time anyway. Freestyle is fun, and I appreciate someone who builds a stage and let's you "have at it".

[Nik Habicht]

I guess I just don't understand why we would want the WSB to be air tight all the time anyway. Freestyle is fun, and I appreciate someone who builds a stage and let's you "have at it".

And I'm fine with that too.....

The fix might have been to write it as "Start Position: Both feet anywhere outside (or inside) the free-fire zone." You could start prone at that point if you wanted to....

What I don't want in a WSB is the kind of ill-thought out ambiguity that will lead to a dispute later. If there's no problem with freestyle, then maybe we rewrite it, to be more anything goes. If it needs to be tighter, for whatever reason, then we write it that way...

[sperman]

[- how did you end up becoming CRO for the stage the OP was talking about when you arrived at the match expecting to be a competitor?

I shot on Friday, worked on Saturday.

I guess I just don't understand why we would want the WSB to be air tight all the time anyway. Freestyle is fun, and I appreciate someone who builds a stage and let's you "have at it".

For all I know we ran the stage exactly how the course designer intended.

[Punkin Chunker]

So someone didn't start exactly how XX other competitors started -- where's the problem?

Did it meet the letter of the WSB? If so, what was 'intended' by the stage designer is irrelevant.

Did the person writing the WSB have a problem with it? Tuck it into the Lessons Learned Locker and move on.

Hopefully fretting about another shooter's 'gaming' didn't upset someone's day.

If so, time to get some Sgt. Rock's Skin Thickener and move on.

[ktm300]

Why would you want to start with one foot in the area and one foot out?

On that stage there was an advantage to shooting the targets on the right first. So if you start facing uprange and turn you would be turning away from your gun. So if you start facing to the right it is a tiny bit quicker. So one foot outside, one foot inside, as soon as you pick up your outside foot you can shoot.

[Schutzenmeister]

I've always preferred the standard of ... "The start position is (X), as demonstrated by the RO. Granted, this generally works better with dedicated RO staff, but it does tend to eliminate nonsensical gaming of the start position. When the shooter tries to stray too far from the demonstrated start position, the RO simply states "That's not how I demonstrated it." I'm all for freestyle ... But freestyle dosen't really start until the beep.

[JThompson]

The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2

If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should.

JT

Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand.

Edited April 7, 2012 by JThompson

[remoandiris]

The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2

If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should.

JT

Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand.

The point some folks are making is if you have one foot inside and one foot outside the shooting area while shooting, the rules say you are outside the shooting area. So, if you have one in and one out at the starting position, you are also outside the shooting area. The WSB said outside, so that requirement of the start position is met.

I agree with you to have the RM make the final call. After that, roll with it.