Auto Comp vs HS-6.. The "feel test"

[baa]

So I am just getting in to Open and have been playing around with a couple loads based on info from other local Open shooters and the wealth of data on the forum. I am shooting 9mm major out of a brand new Millenium Custom 5" with the MC comp and no barrel ports.

I loaded two load types- 8.3g of HS-6 and 7.3g of Auto Comp. Both using SP primers, 124g MG JHPs and OAL of 1.160. They both chronoed right around 170 PF.

From a feel and dot travel standpoint I could not tell the difference. Recoil, dot tracking, shot to shot on target times felt the exact same. Shots on the timer were the exact same for a couple transition drills I run during practice. I mixed the rounds up in a mag and truly could not tell one load from the other. I like both loads and at this point I want to focus on learning to shoot Open vs chasing a load around.

I think I am going to go with Auto Comp as it is a bit cheaper and takes slightly less powder per round.

I have also heard that Auto Comp is "cleaner" than HS-6, though I have not put enough rounds down range to have any idea of what dirty means in an Open blaster (about 800 rounds down range since I got it last week.)

Any other advantages/disadvantages of HS-6 vs Auto Comp?

[Sarge]

Any other advantages/disadvantages of HS-6 vs Auto Comp?

I did this same test last month and pretty much came to the same conclusion. The HS6 load was not what it had been talked up to be. I was expecting to hear music from the heavens but all I heard was a bang that sounded just like the Auto Comp bang.

I will stay with AC for now.

Oh, the advantage I get with AC is that it takes less powder to make PF. Results in no spillage on the 650 since the case is only 3/4 full.

[mscott]

I chose Auto Comp over HS6 as well when loading for 9 major.

[Too_Slow]

Where as I am sticking with HS-6. I tried Autocomp and at 7.4 it only made 167 in my gun and was flattening the primers much more than the HS-6 has while it makes 173.

Brian

[Hi-Power Jack]

Any other advantages/disadvantages of HS-6 vs Auto Comp?

I did this same test last month and pretty much came to the same conclusion. the advantage I get with AC is that it takes less powder to make PF. Results in no spillage on the 650 since the case is only 3/4 full.

+1. I used HS6 for two years, with 115 gr bullets.

Tried WAC with 124's two years ago, and didn't see any

large difference, but cheaper, less spillage and just

as good:)

I'm staying with WAC & 124's.

[Y. Koester]

I normally use ac and love it. I tried hs-6 and found a black slurry of open gun after about 300 rounds. Auto comp is the bomb as far as i am concerned.

[CocoBolo]

I've said it many times, HS6 vs AutoComp can't tell the difference, but Shilhouette kicks both of them's butts to the curb when it comes to soft and flat. YMMV. Note it is dirty, varies a bit lot to lot, reverse temp sensative, and takes more powder than AC, but less than HS6, man I like the stuff.

HS6 is cleaner when you light it up with Magnum Primers. That black soot doesn't seem to hurt anything, the gravel that AA#7 leaves behind can be a problem in a tight gun.

I'm guessing here that this is 9 major. In 9 major if you want to up the gas volume, try 3N38 or AA#7. For those that have not tamed the powder slinging you definatley won't like these two, and you need an oal out about 1.180.

I can't say it applies to 9 major with a Bedel, I did get my 38S with Bedel Tamed by pushing the PF up to 175+. I woudn't recommend going there with AC. I've been to 189pf with Silhouette, lived to tell about it.

Also you might want to try 121gr or even 115gr, more powder more gas!

In the end what makes sense is to find a load that makes PF, is comfortable to shoot, powder bullets primers you can get, then just shoot the snot out of it. There isn't any magic, some feel a bit better than others, but that is just shooter preference, and all guns are unique.

I always knew SP2 was the magic but then the guy with the SP2 tried HS6 and switched, go figure.

[brhalolll]

I am on the AutoComp test, as well. I have been through a couple of VV powders (3N38 and N350). Going to see if this will work out.

[brhalolll]

Here is a little load data:

124 RN-FMJ, Win SPM primer

7.0 grains AutoComp = 1283ft/sec

7.5 grains AutoComp = 1355ft/sec (168 PF)

[brhalolll]

The VV powders:

124 RN-FMJ, Win SPM primer

7.5 grains of N350 = 1,344ft/sec

8.7 grains of 3N38 = 1,365ft/sec

[Mat Price]

read this thread. I did testing with both in the end a/c won out

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=147730

[brhalolll]

Mat,

Thanks for the link. Very good information.

[Mat Price]

Looks like ur gun is slow also. I have to load 7.4 grains with a jhp to get 173-175. With a Rn I only get 169 with 7.4 grains

[mitchiepinoy]

KKM BARREL WITH BRAZOS SUPER COMP

Auto comp 7.2 , 1.170 oal, 174pf

HS6 8.3 , 1.170 oal, 168

AC shoots flatter and less powder

[gng4life]

Remember, the "feel" test is very subjective. Taking that into consideration, I did the same test when I first went to 9Major with several hundred rounds. The WAC seemed a little more "violent' and the recoil impulse of HS6 was just slower, giving a better feel to me.

I do hate the black smut and crap on the gun but my guns can run with at least a thousand rounds between cleanings (I did this on purpose to see how it would do) and never had a malfunction.

I'm staying with HS6 and MG 124 for now...

[OpenDot]

I like Win AC for 9major

Colorado state championship:

7.4AC

Mixed Brass

WSRP

OAL 1.170

chrono'd 175.9 PF - 70 degrees, overcast

Rounds were loaded and chrono'd in phx for match at 174PF 80 degrees, sunny day

Altitude and Air play a little into it, but not much with AC

[XRe]

I'll just say this (I don't shoot Major 9, so no dog in the hunt you're asking about). Ignore feel. Ignore your perception of "flat". Run drills on the timer and score them. Use whatever gives you the best scores, regardless of how shitty it seems to feel.

[GMEddie]

Dave makes a great point.

[gng4life]

I'll just say this (I don't shoot Major 9, so no dog in the hunt you're asking about). Ignore feel. Ignore your perception of "flat". Run drills on the timer and score them. Use whatever gives you the best scores, regardless of how shitty it seems to feel.

That's what I did and the one that gave me the best score is the one that felt the best. However, the times were so close that it really didn't matter. Usually, people will do better with things that are more comfortable to them. Timer drills are good but not absolute. I feel it would be better to shoot what you like the most and then get good with it.

Of course, Dave is a much better shooter than me so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[XRe]

That's what I did and the one that gave me the best score is the one that felt the best.

Bonus points, then

However, the times were so close that it really didn't matter. Usually, people will do better with things that are more comfortable to them.

I will concede this point - but only with a caveat that the phenomenon is almost always due to people consciously or subconsciously sabotaging the thing that they don't find as comfortable, to purposefully skew the results of their testing to match what they've already decided is "best". So, what they're really doing is providing themselves justification for a choice, and not actually objectively testing to find best results. In the end, that practice does them no good.

That said - it didn't work that way for me. I'm shooting a gun and a load that I'm not naturally comfortable with, but I get noticeably better and more consistent results with what I'm shooting than I do with a rig that naturally feels more comfortable to me (over time, I've gotten used to the combination, and it feels good, now, but definitely didn't when I started in with it). I've spoken with several top notch shooters who've had the same sort of experience, and some who haven't.

Timer drills are good but not absolute. I feel it would be better to shoot what you like the most and then get good with it.

How are they not absolute? When you boil it all down, your score is the time it takes you to shoot a certain number of points. The timer and the targets are objective measures - they are absolute, in terms of your measurable performance in the game. Maybe "absolute" wasn't the word you meant?

It baffles me that people would shoot a gun and load - see clearly that they consistently get better scores with it - and still not go with that rig over something that seems subjectively more comfortable... My bias is winning, though, so you have to factor that into the equation, I guess? (don't mean that to be snarky - some people aren't concerned about winning, is all I'm saying...)

[XRe]

Dave makes a great point.

Eddie!

[SLM]

Dave, what drills would you recommend? Thanks!

[gng4life]

Timer drills are good but not absolute. I feel it would be better to shoot what you like the most and then get good with it.

How are they not absolute? When you boil it all down, your score is the time it takes you to shoot a certain number of points. The timer and the targets are objective measures - they are absolute, in terms of your measurable performance in the game. Maybe "absolute" wasn't the word you meant?

It baffles me that people would shoot a gun and load - see clearly that they consistently get better scores with it - and still not go with that rig over something that seems subjectively more comfortable... My bias is winning, though, so you have to factor that into the equation, I guess? (don't mean that to be snarky - some people aren't concerned about winning, is all I'm saying...)

You are missing my point. Confidence in your equipment/load and what the shooter feels is better plays a huge role in how you perform. If you are only looking at a timer and not thinking about the big picture, you are losing already. As we all know, the mental aspect of this sport is vital to moving on, not just timer drills.

If you missed my caveat at the end of my original statement, I'll repeat it again. I am not as good as you so take my opinion with a grain of salt...but this is how I see things.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: HS-6 is softer than Winchester Auto Comp. I use 115grain Montana Gold JHP's in my 9mm open pistol. I also run the power factor up in the 171-173PF and use either small rifle or magnum primers. I totally agree with using the time and your hits to find the best powder for you after all that is what this sport is all about. Feeling comfortable is also important because we feel better when we are in our comfort zone. We may actually shoot better when outside our comfort zone. Do a test on these 2 powders you will have to shoot more of each of them to find the powder you like best. You may also have to adjust the power factor of your loads to get the pistol to shoot the way you want. I am a fan of HS-6 and like how it works with the 115's but others may like a different powder with heavier bullets. Thanks, Eric

[XRe]

You are missing my point. Confidence in your equipment/load and what the shooter feels is better plays a huge role in how you perform.

I didn't miss your point I don't agree with it, but I didn't miss it.

What inspires confidence in your gear? The ability to hit a difficult target quickly? Reliability? Consistency? The ability to score well with it? Or is it how it "feels"? If the latter, you're fooling yourself, as I said before. If you can demonstrate that one configuration of gear consistently allows you to score better than another configuration (through putting holes in paper, looking at the timer, and scoring the targets - this is empirical, objective, immutable data), and still choose the less configuration because it "feels better", you are consciously choosing the thing that performs worse for you. If that inspires confidence, I'm afraid I can't help you.

The second part of my point is that if you go to do empirical tests with gear, and you sabotage the effort by allowing your personal predilections to get in the way of honestly shooting the configurations you're evaluating, and letting the chips fall where they may, you're also fooling yourself.

I understand why you're asserting that "what the shooter feels is better" is important to their performance - I used to be in that camp. I did a lot of work that proved to me emphatically that what the shooter "feels is better" not only doesn't actually matter to their performance, but frequently is wrong, too (of course, the gun must fit, and not have sharp edges, etc - that sort of feel is different than what we're talking about here in this thread, though - but, if the gun feels like a brick and bites your hand every time it goes off, sure, you're not going to shoot it well).

If you are only looking at a timer and not thinking about the big picture, you are losing already.

Besides the timer, the only other piece of data that you need is where the holes show up in the targets. That is the big picture. (see below)

As we all know, the mental aspect of this sport is vital to moving on, not just timer drills.

Absolutely, the mental game is king. What you're missing is where true confidence comes from. Confidence comes from doing the work, and knowing (empirically) that you can execute the shots you're required to make consistently. There can be a false sense of confidence that comes from having nice, or pretty gear, and gear that makes you "feel good" - but under pressure, such things leave you quite quickly. What remains is what you know you can execute on demand, and you only know that by having done it, time and time again in practice. And - the gear that allows you to do that more consistently, faster, and with better hits is ultimately the gear that gives you the most real confidence.

And... how do you do things, time and time again, and prove to yourself that you can do them, that you're getting better, and what level you own those skills at? Drills. Drills, as it turns out, are a huge part of your mental game.

If you missed my caveat at the end of my original statement, I'll repeat it again. I am not as good as you so take my opinion with a grain of salt...but this is how I see things.

Didn't miss it - I don't think it's germaine to the discussion, honestly. I've proven to myself several times over that what I'm saying above holds true (for myself, and a number of other folks who've tried it) - being a better shooter or not isn't going to change that experience. Of course, you're welcome to see things how you like. The experience that I've had suggests that at some point, you'll find that viewpoint to become limiting on your performance...