3 Gun Nation Pro Series Targets

[59Bassman]

I really don't care for the direction this is headed. I understand why the existing targets pose a problem for the major network producers. However, rather than use the sport to change attitudes, it appears they're going to change the sport.

Next up will be 10 round mag limits on all firearms and a restriction on pistol grips for shotguns and rifles. It won't change the sport you see, it will just make it more appealing to those in major markets.

[Brian Payne]

I could be all wrong here, but maybe they are using these targets so the cameras can actually see the hits as they appear so that spectators at home can see exactly what is going on?

Just thinking outside of the box because the show seems to be geared more toward spectator approval.

[Dan Sierpina]

I could be all wrong here, but maybe they are using these targets so the cameras can actually see the hits as they appear so that spectators at home can see exactly what is going on?

Just thinking outside of the box because the show seems to be geared more toward spectator approval.

I think we have a winner! The show has to have a much larger audience than the few hundred of competition shooters.

[davehorn]

I could be all wrong here, but maybe they are using these targets so the cameras can actually see the hits as they appear so that spectators at home can see exactly what is going on?

Just thinking outside of the box because the show seems to be geared more toward spectator approval.

I agree, this is probably the case.

To add to that, I wouldn't be surprised if they have remote cameras placed near and focused on each target, so that hits can be seen on tv. A steel target would eventually kill a camera with splatter.

[springy]

4" target at 100 yards is 4moa

8" @ 100 is 8moa, @200 is 4moa (and is a tough target), at 300 is 2moa (whew!)

10" @ 200 is 5moa, @ 300 is 3.3moa (sorta the standard tough target?)

10" @ 350 is 2.8moa (bonus type target)

So I'm thinking 4" at 100 is like a 10" at 250'ish, with no wind drift, and little to no bullet drop.

With just the top 50, + 14 retired guys that have the time to shoot the matches, a 4" steel should be a bit of a challenge, but fun for everyone.

but that's just me and a cheap walmart calculater

[MarkCO]

Make the targets bigger, the top guys just go faster. Make them smaller, some will slow down enough, some will crash and burn here and there. I think it's great in the made for TV venue.

[ArmdCtzn]

I think these targets were designed with the TV audience in mind, but I also think that you'll see the idea make its way down to the local match level. Everybody will want to do what they see done on TV.

[gose]

I could be all wrong here, but maybe they are using these targets so the cameras can actually see the hits as they appear so that spectators at home can see exactly what is going on?

Just thinking outside of the box because the show seems to be geared more toward spectator approval.

Well, that explains the use of shoot-n-see targets, and I think that idea is pretty cool, but it still doesnt really explain why they picked a circle.

BC makes silhouette targets already (like this: http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/500/200308854.jpg), so surely they could have come up with a shoot-n-see USPSA/IPSC/IDPA style target if they wanted.

I would have liked to see a target more similar to whats being used now could have been used instead, but I dont know how much work it is to produce a new type of target, maybe it was too costly with limited or no potential market outside 3GN?

So, I reserve final judgement until I know if the decision was based on cost, or PC-ness

Edited March 15, 2012 by gose

[smokshwn]

My dumbing down comment was about the lack of rifle targets past 100 yards. As for the circle, eh...target are targets

Exactly how is a 4" steel target at 100 yds "dumbing down" anything?

think about it for a while

OK I give up, the evil 3 Gun Nation has already made me a stupid zombie.

Since I am so dumb, please explain to me how a 4MOA target is "dumbing down" the sport.

[TMC]

Since I am so dumb, please explain to me how a 4MOA target is "dumbing down" the sport.

Ok so maybe I'm dummy (who shot is mouth off too fast) based on the info from the math whizzes with thier fancy calculat'n machines

The difficult deal for me in 3-gun is targets past 200 where bullet drop comes into play. I live in the land of 200 yard and shorter rifle ranges so I can only guess where my bullets are going past 200. I'm using an old TR-21 Accupoint so if the farthest target I have to shoot is 100 that's means just one zero and one hold I have to think about.

Maybe if I step up and buy a fancy new scope with a Disneyland BDC reticle my game will improve because all I'll have to do it put the correct hash mark on the target and press. I guess that's how it works for everybody else and why I finish like I do.

Edited March 15, 2012 by TMC

[gdboytyler]

My dumbing down comment was about the lack of rifle targets past 100 yards. As for the circle, eh...target are targets

Exactly how is a 4" steel target at 100 yds "dumbing down" anything?

think about it for a while

OK I give up, the evil 3 Gun Nation has already made me a stupid zombie.

Since I am so dumb, please explain to me how a 4MOA target is "dumbing down" the sport.

Option A: 4 MOA targets at 100 yards, you zero your rifle for 100 yds and only have to worry about holding high on up close targets. Everything else, you put your cross hair / dot on the center of the target. Negligible wind affects. You could use 55 gr bullet for everything.

Option B: 4 MOA targets out to 400-500 yards, do you zero 100, 200, 250 or 300 yards? Some targets you hold under, some you hold over, some you aim at the center. If it's a windy day, maybe you want something heavier than 55 gr. Ability to adjust for wind comes into affect.

Option A seems a lot dumber to me.

[Lead-Head]

I agree that option A has less variables to consider if you are shooting from a static postion. I like the long range stuff, but some ranges are a challenge and MDs have to shrink the target to make the rifle a challenge.

I have a feeling that 3GN will add addtional variables to the stages that make these 4 moa, 100yd targets plenty challenging. Shooting postions, obstacles, and movement can all be applyed as undumbification strategies.

[MarkCO]

As a follow up to my prior post...these are the "Top 3 Gunners". In that vein, I don't want wind rain or sun to decide the winner, whether it is on TV or not. Allowing for the high speed, no wind aspects, keeps winning, losing and total melt down completely under control of the competitor, that is good. Is it the kind of match I would be good at...heck no! I guess I do think it is kind of funny that people will complain about a match that has not even occurred yet.

[gose]

As a follow up to my prior post...these are the "Top 3 Gunners". In that vein, I don't want wind rain or sun to decide the winner, whether it is on TV or not. Allowing for the high speed, no wind aspects, keeps winning, losing and total melt down completely under control of the competitor, that is good. Is it the kind of match I would be good at...heck no! I guess I do think it is kind of funny that people will complain about a match that has not even occurred yet.

Also, these are events designed to make good TV, not necessarily to be "true" to the sport.

Watching long range stages is about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Edited March 15, 2012 by gose

[Chuck Anderson]

Watching long range stages is about as interesting as watching paint dry.

I don't know about that. I've watched some incredible performances by some guys who really know what they are doing. I remember watching Bruce Piatt on the long range stage at Superstition one year. He would shoot, call the shot and already be moving to the next Larue before it went over and before the sound from the hit even got back to us. Just cool to watch. I don't have the stones to try and pull that one off.

[J.Schmitt]

Not so much as dumbing down, as it is "Politically Correct" targets. It is going to be on NBC sports.

I would agree with this. Anything that resembles a human shape is like killing and therefor not sporting. We have a local range that will not even allow USPSA paper during public hours. Time will tell, will we see an influx of the metric IPSC replacing the USPSA in the future.

Jay

[Chills1994]

[smokshwn]

My dumbing down comment was about the lack of rifle targets past 100 yards. As for the circle, eh...target are targets

Exactly how is a 4" steel target at 100 yds "dumbing down" anything?

think about it for a while

OK I give up, the evil 3 Gun Nation has already made me a stupid zombie.

Since I am so dumb, please explain to me how a 4MOA target is "dumbing down" the sport.

Option A: 4 MOA targets at 100 yards, you zero your rifle for 100 yds and only have to worry about holding high on up close targets. Everything else, you put your cross hair / dot on the center of the target. Negligible wind affects. You could use 55 gr bullet for everything.

Option B: 4 MOA targets out to 400-500 yards, do you zero 100, 200, 250 or 300 yards? Some targets you hold under, some you hold over, some you aim at the center. If it's a windy day, maybe you want something heavier than 55 gr. Ability to adjust for wind comes into affect.

Option A seems a lot dumber to me.

That decision where to zero is a real killer, you would have to be smart enough to use a ballistic calculator and everything!

I don't know how to do this but someone once told me that if you run a 200yd zero you never have to leave a 10" plate to hit it all the way to 400yds! and if you run a 300 yd zero that stretches to 450!!! all without holding anywhere other than the center of the plate!!!!!!! even more amazing huh?

Like I said I'm just a dummy, but it seems like a few purty smart fellers only shoot 55gr bullets already....but then again one of them is Kurt Miller so he must be a dummy too.

Bottom line you can think this is "dumbing down" all you want. I'll bet $100 to a donut that the stage design, varying stage strategy, positional difficulty and most importantly level of competition will keep this endeavor plenty "smart".

The dumb move seems to be playing the critic who throws rocks from the stands at the guys playing the game.

Edited March 15, 2012 by smokshwn

[gdboytyler]

....

That decision where to zero is a real killer, you would have to be smart enough to use a ballistic calculator and everything!

I don't know how to do this but someone once told me that if you run a 200yd zero you never have to leave a 10" plate to hit it all the way to 400yds! and if you run a 300 yd zero that stretches to 450!!! all without holding anywhere other than the center of the plate!!!!!!! even more amazing huh?

Like I said I'm just a dummy, but it seems like a few purty smart fellers only shoot 55gr bullets already....but then again one of them is Kurt Miller so he must be a dummy too.

Bottom line you can think this is "dumbing down" all you want. I'll bet $100 to a donut that the stage design, varying stage strategy, positional difficulty and most importantly level of competition will keep this endeavor plenty "smart".

The dumb move seems to be playing the critic who throws rocks from the stands at the guys playing the game.

What super bullet / load are you using? 200 yd zero with 55 gr bullet has 18" drop at 400 yards. If you put the cross hair anywhere on that 10" plate, you'll get a miss.

Admit it, shooting 4 MOA at 100 yards is easier (dumbed down) than 4 MOA at 400 yards.

[smokshwn]

....

That decision where to zero is a real killer, you would have to be smart enough to use a ballistic calculator and everything!

I don't know how to do this but someone once told me that if you run a 200yd zero you never have to leave a 10" plate to hit it all the way to 400yds! and if you run a 300 yd zero that stretches to 450!!! all without holding anywhere other than the center of the plate!!!!!!! even more amazing huh?

Like I said I'm just a dummy, but it seems like a few purty smart fellers only shoot 55gr bullets already....but then again one of them is Kurt Miller so he must be a dummy too.

Bottom line you can think this is "dumbing down" all you want. I'll bet $100 to a donut that the stage design, varying stage strategy, positional difficulty and most importantly level of competition will keep this endeavor plenty "smart".

The dumb move seems to be playing the critic who throws rocks from the stands at the guys playing the game.

What super bullet / load are you using? 200 yd zero with 55 gr bullet has 18" drop at 400 yards. If you put the cross hair anywhere on that 10" plate, you'll get a miss.

Admit it, shooting 4 MOA at 100 yards is easier (dumbed down) than 4 MOA at 400 yards.

It's actually a Super Duper load....(note the extreme sarcasm, it was present in the above quoted statement as well)

Admit it, people love to critique that which they can't do........or show up and kick the top 64's collective asses on these "dumbed down" stages and fully legitimize your opinions

[TMC]

The dumb move seems to be playing the critic who throws rocks from the stands at the guys playing the game.

I just made a small comment, forgive me for upsetting some folks sensibilities

Edited March 16, 2012 by TMC

[smokshwn]

The dumb move seems to be playing the critic who throws rocks from the stands at the guys playing the game.

I just made a small comment, forgive me for upsetting some folks sensibilities

Todd, maybe it's been more of the collective criticizing of almost everything 3GN has done. Yes there have been some bumps along the way but in two years they have taken the sport from fighting for range time to being put on a national television network and having an a huge increase in the number of sponsors gathering to support the events (all events not just 3GN). First it was the awards being delayed for shootoffs, or the matches were being too influenced by 3GN presence.....now that they start their own series they're apparently doing that wrong too.

They've have put forth an incredible effort to increase participation in the sport and be all inclusive from the ground floor local matches to the Pro Series. They have created a level of exposure that was only dreamt of when I started the sport. They have solicited any and all advice from many of the sports best and most experienced shooters and match directors. It would be silly to think they can make everyone happy or never make an unpopular decision but on the whole the positives dwarf the negatives.

My hat is off to the effort and commitment 3GN has shown to this sport, after all, they have asked nothing from shooters other than they show up and do what they love....compete. All the while, working their asses to hopefully make it better and show it off to more and more people.

[Don Springer]

The dumb move seems to be playing the critic who throws rocks from the stands at the guys playing the game.

I just made a small comment, forgive me for upsetting some folks sensibilities

Todd, maybe it's been more of the collective criticizing of almost everything 3GN has done. Yes there have been some bumps along the way but in two years they have taken the sport from fighting for range time to being put on a national television network and having an a huge increase in the number of sponsors gathering to support the events (all events not just 3GN). First it was the awards being delayed for shootoffs, or the matches were being too influenced by 3GN presence.....now that they start their own series they're apparently doing that wrong too.

They've have put forth an incredible effort to increase participation in the sport and be all inclusive from the ground floor local matches to the Pro Series. They have created a level of exposure that was only dreamt of when I started the sport. They have solicited any and all advice from many of the sports best and most experienced shooters and match directors. It would be silly to think they can make everyone happy or never make an unpopular decision but on the whole the positives dwarf the negatives.

My hat is off to the effort and commitment 3GN has shown to this sport, after all, they have asked nothing from shooters other than they show up and do what they love....compete. All the while, working their asses to hopefully make it better and show it off to more and more people.

Very well put.

[TMC]

Craig,

I'm the first person to say that all competitive shooting is good no matter what, USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, Hi-power, trap, skeet you name it, to each his own, live and let live. I've never said 3GN is bad or wrong or whatever. Sure I'm a little put out when they are delaying awards at a match where I want to get my prize and get on the road for my 14 hour drive home but hey, what are you going to do. Before 3GN we had Dan at SMM3G.

I didn't make the comment to demean 3GN or the guys shooting it, it was a flippant comment about how TV shows seem to take, whatever the subject matter, down to the lowest common denominator to make it easy for the non-(insert fan here) to understand and nothing more. It wasn't a shot at the idea of the 3GN form of shooting or the guys who are going the make the series. Hell, I'm a bit jealous, if I had an invite and the time I'd be there too.

How about I buy you a beer next week and we'll call it good?

Todd

Edited March 16, 2012 by TMC

[Bryan 45]

If everyone keeps 3GN's target audience in mind, I think it all makes sense. I have no problems with that. I say show it to the masses, get them interested and draw them out to their local matches.

A show on 3G that would interest most of us would lose 95% of the audience in the first 3 minutes. We talk about the difference between Young and JP low mass carriers, Zi6 vs. Accupoint reticles, fast 55g vs 69g at range. None of this is going to get non-3G shooters interested in the sport. But big, close shoot-n-see targets, mindless hosing (as Taran Butler would say), and fall over shotgun plates are going make people say "COOL!"

Edited March 16, 2012 by Bryan 45