rhino Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The esteemed Erik Warren said in a topic about the recent 3-Gun Nationals: When the ROs were shooting stages, another poor soul had his 20 ga 1100 jam and he used his knife to clear it. Using a tool to clear a jam results in a zero for the stage under the shotgun rulebook. But does that apply in a multigun match when the stage is not designated as a shotgun stage, but as a pistol stage? Because both the 14th-2001 and proposed 2004 rulebooks prohibit tools for handguns, but a handgun is not a shotgun or a rifle. Is anyone else bothered by this? The rules barring the use of tools irritates me, as I have used tools more than once during a course of fire to remediate a malfunction and finish the stage. We already have too many nitpicky rules that serve no purpose and since we will soon have a rule that limits time to clear a malfunction to two minutes, why (assuming no safety rules are compromised) continue with the absurd rule barring the use of tools? Especially since the use of props to help fix the gun will soon be okay again! Am I the only one who cares? Has anyone else used their pocket knife or multi-tool to fix a problem, then successfully completed a stage without too much delay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 It does seem a bit silly, especially since some long gun instructors, like Mas Ayoob for instance, actually teach using a pocket knife to "un-stick" a malfing shotgun. I can only assume the rules makers are concerned about the amount of gun manipulation necessary to use a tool on a long gun during a stage might lead to covering someone with the muzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The newb speaks I think you should be able to use what ever you can carry in your pockets. That's how it would go down on the street so why not in practical shooting? The newb retreats to his corner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I think you should be able to use what ever you can carry in your pockets. That's how it would go down on the street so why not in practical shooting? Since when does this sport have much to do with what you would do in a gunfight on the street?! Seriously, I can see situations where "use what you brought" to clear a jam or malf'ing gun would be a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The rules barring the use of tools irritates me, as I have used tools more than once during a course of fire to remediate a malfunction and finish the stage. It's a matter of safety, because competitors trying to use tools on a loaded gun, under time pressure, after the start signal, is a recipe for disaster. And while you can do whatever you want on the street to save your ass, if and when your life is in danger, the greater responsibility for us during a sporting competition is trying our best to minimise the safety risk to ROs, other competitors and spectators. It's the bigger picture. When you consider the millions of rounds fired by IPSC competitors worldwide each year, without incident or a major jam, to the relative handful of jams which require more than the standard three "hands-only" gun clearance techniques, the risks of allowing the use of tools outweighs the benefits by an overwhelming margin. We already have too many nitpicky rules that serve no purpose and since we will soon have a rule that limits time to clear a malfunction to two minutes, why (assuming no safety rules are compromised) continue with the absurd rule barring the use of tools? Especially since the use of props to help fix the gun will soon be okay again! How much time do you need? Should we make it 5 minutes? Or 20 minutes? Or "However the hell long I wanna take playing gunsmith, and too bad about the match schedule and everybody else"? We had to draw a line somewhere, and 2 minutes was the amount of time the Rules Committee believes is when even a 32 round COF has been zeroed due to excess time, so what's the point in allowing more time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 What if... What if I have a shotgun shell fail to extract, and I grab another shell and use the rim to rip the stuck shell out of the chamber. Does this constitute use of a tool? As for safety issues, I say humbug. If you break the 180 or cover yourself, or have an AD, there are rules to cover this. I'm with Rhino on this. The two minute limit seems reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I am with Vince. I've seen too much dumb crap tried...even off the clock. Heck...we had a shooter a match or two ago that over-inserted a mag into his single-stack. I was helping him out...holding the gun...when he want to stick the "tool" in behind a live round in the mag and give it a whack with a hammer. I gave him a big WHOA COWBOY. Too close to the primer for me. I'm all for the LCD on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 If you break the 180 or cover yourself, or have an AD, there are rules to cover this. Why is breaking 90 degrees without actually firing a shot declared unsafe? Why is firing a shot into the ground at 3.1m OK, but an identical shot at 2.9m declared unsafe? Why is moving with your finger on the trigger declared unsafe if no shot is fired? Why is dropping an unloaded gun after "LAMR" declared unsafe? The answer to the above and the "no tools" rule is "progressive safety redundancy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 when he want to stick the "tool" in behind a live round in the mag and give it a whack with a hammer. I gave him a big WHOA COWBOY. Too close to the primer for me. While we all like to laugh at the Darwin awards, I don't think any of us really want to see an award winner in person, or even worse, be a co-owner of the award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I've seen too much dumb crap tried...even off the clock. AAAAAAmen! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 What if...What if I have a shotgun shell fail to extract, and I grab another shell and use the rim to rip the stuck shell out of the chamber. Does this constitute use of a tool? I'd say that's a tool ... and it should be okay. But apparently we need nannies now. If using tools is such a safety hazard, how can banging your gun on a prop wall not also be a safety hazard? So why is it going to be okay again to use props to help clear a jam (according to Bob Wooley's article in the new Front Sight)? As for safety issues, I say humbug. If you break the 180 or cover yourself, or have an AD, there are rules to cover this. I'm with Rhino on this. The two minute limit seems reasonable. You are clearly an erudite and perceptive individual. Let's all say it together now ... W E A L R E A D Y H A V E R U L E S T O C O V E R T H E S A F E T Y I S S U E S. I think you should be able to use what ever you can carry in your pockets. Yet another man exhibiting great wisdom and insight. And a newb, no less! Bravo, sir! Bravissimo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I can understand the need for a "no tools rule" due to safety. We even have laws against speeding and still have to wear a safetybelt - and the law say which side of the road we drive, lots and lots of road signs, etc, etc, etc. - and accidents STILL happen These rules exist for the numbnuts amongst us who are going to shoot themselves or your wife/mistress/girlfriend on the side line. If you require tools to fix your gun, your gun wasn't fit (or your reloads) - clear, score as shot, next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Quick Quiz: Most of the AD's & DQ's I've seen were: (A) In the middle of a stage, with little warning or ( After the something went wrong and the shooter was trying to fix it. In my case, it's B by about 5-1. I remember the old days when the jam-fixing Spyderco was de-rigeur for shooter-wear, but that was in the DNF-zero days when you'd fix it and then not continue to shoot so as to avoid the DNF or the huge time added. With no DNF and two minutes max, what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Quick Quiz:Most of the AD's & DQ's I've seen were: (A) In the middle of a stage, with little warning or ( After the something went wrong and the shooter was trying to fix it. In my case, it's B by about 5-1. I remember the old days when the jam-fixing Spyderco was de-rigeur for shooter-wear, but that was in the DNF-zero days when you'd fix it and then not continue to shoot so as to avoid the DNF or the huge time added. With no DNF and two minutes max, what's the point? Well said Shred. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 (Joey, sorry for the drift.) That's not a problem! Now, you must change your opinion and convince others to allow me to use my multi-tool without penalties when I need to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 drum roll please........ Just get a Glock and it becomes an non-issue. (I know, I know...too long of a trigger reach.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The nice thing about IPSC/IDPA/3 gun is that, in the words of Bonedaddy, "We get to run around with loaded guns!" Something the Bullseye/Trap/Highpower crowd considers dreadfully unsafe, is routine to us. What is bothersome is making the rules for the lowest common denominator (knuckleheads). Why must I rip off a finger nail to stay in the game, when I can grab a pen out of my shirt pocket and use it to clear a jam? Once again, humbug. If we make all the rules based on what a retard might do, this game will be much less fun. Nobody say anything about my nails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 drum roll please........Just get a Glock and it becomes an non-issue. (I know, I know...too long of a trigger reach.) flex i'd love to be with you on this....but a couple of years ago my sizing die moved leaving a lot of fat brass that i missed. i must haved used my knife 4 or 5 times that match to help clear my glock. plus all the times i hit the grip with the right hand while holding the slide with the left, needless to say that wasn't a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I just couldn't resist one of my favorite quotes: "A gun is a tool, Marion, no better or no worse than any other tool, an axe, a shovel or anything." "I love you Shane!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 If we make all the rules based on what a retard might do, this game will be much less fun. Sadly, John, that's generally the way it is, both in IPSC and outside the sport. I don't need to be told to get a taxi home if I'm half in the bag, but the minority of idiots around the world who insist on driving themselves created a need for laws and heavy penalties. We're trying to raise the bar at IPSC matches but, sometimes, you've got to raise the bar and the ground beneath it. Moreover, I don't see how this rule affects the "fun" aspects of IPSC. The bottom line is that no competitor should be permitted to potentially endanger an RO (or anybody else for that matter). With the new restrictions, and RO can yell "Stop" if a competitor tries to use a tool under time pressure like a moron. Without the restriction, the RO has to actually wait for something bad to happen, and by then it might well be too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 If we make all the rules based on what a retard might do, this game will be much less fun. Sadly, John, that's generally the way it is, both in IPSC and outside the sport. I don't need to be told to get a taxi home if I'm half in the bag, but the minority of idiots around the world who insist on driving themselves created a need for laws and heavy penalties. We're trying to raise the bar at IPSC matches but, sometimes, you've got to raise the bar and the ground beneath it. Moreover, I don't see how this rule affects the "fun" aspects of IPSC. The bottom line is that no competitor should be permitted to potentially endanger an RO (or anybody else for that matter). With the new restrictions, and RO can yell "Stop" if a competitor tries to use a tool under time pressure like a moron. Without the restriction, the RO has to actually wait for something bad to happen, and by then it might well be too late. Vince, I'll disagree. Even under the current rules the R.O. can call "Stop" anytime he sees a (potential) safety issue. The only difference is that he might have to offer a re-shoot. That's a trade-off I'll gladly make. Equating this change to drunk driving laws doesn't wash either --- it's been proven that impaired driver's aren't safe drivers; conversely there are shooters who could clear a jam safely using tools, while there probably are some who shouldn't be clearing jams under any circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Nik, I hear you, but the RO cannot be expected to know which competitors can use tools safely, and which cannot, just like the RO cannot be expected to determine which competitors can still be very safe while breaking 90 degrees. And we also do our best to prevent safety calls from being subjective. You're either safe or you're unsafe, according to the criteria laid down in the rules. We have to draw lines in the sand all of the time, and this is just another line, just like the 3 metre rule. We'd also need another 2 pages of rules if we were to try and identify exactly which tools and specific uses are deemed safe, and which are not. The simpler solution was to prohibit the use of all tools because, in the overall bigger picture, major tool-inducing jams are a tiny portion of our sport. However if you continue to object to the rule, by all means feel free to contact your AD or RD to seek recourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Is it OK to just show up and shoot a 3-gun match, or do I have to reserve a golf cart for my attorney to ride around in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I split out the "two-minute limit for malfuction clearing" talk into it's own discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 I think you should be able to use what ever you can carry in your pockets. Yet another man exhibiting great wisdom and insight. And a newb, no less! Bravo, sir! Bravissimo! [blush] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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