Anyone still shooting a P9/Witness?

[GlockSpeed31]

Is anyone out there still shooting a P9/Witness open gun (9mm Major or 9x21)?

Is it still competetive with the STI/SV/Caspian?

I'm thinking about getting a used P9/Witness, to get back into open class. I've been gone from open class for a while and wanted to get back into it. Don't have a lot of money to spend with a baby on the way.

Thanks in advance for any help.

GlockSpeed31

[eric nielsen]

Almost nobody. Several reasons. The way EAA alienated the people shooting for them & basically screwed the former importer [springfield] right at the point that Springfield was supporting this sport like crazy. The 175 power factor and the short OAL of the round. The scarcity of 9x21 brass [for a while] and the scarcity of gunsmiths who could make a Tanfoglio run [always].

If you find one that works, esp. in 9x19 caliber, load it for the 165pf [160 outside the USA] and stick to 124/125gr bullets and HS6 powder or 3n37 powder, you could do fine. A lot of the above problems would not apply to you at all.

Having said that, I sure wouldn't seek out a P9 or Witness. Mr. Grauffel uses one in the longer 38super-rimless and then only because it fits his very small hands.

If a good one is in your neighborhood, ask the owner if you can test-fire it. Unless you have large hands - then don't bother.

[L9X25]

I agree with most of what Eric said except for the grip size. I have an EAA Gold Team in 9x21 (full house Open pistol) that I kept for when my son begins to shoot. He is now 10yrs old and I have started to work with him. It is a stretch for him to reach the thumb safety AND the trigger without changing his grip. He was also complaining about the weight of the pistol. I figured that he might not be ready for a full size pistol yet. He then grabbed my SV open pistol and said that it was more comfortable to him. On a scale the SV is noticeably lighter than the Tanfoglio pistol and, despite the smaller sized grip of the EAA, the SV ergonomics feel more comfortable for him with the modified grip and short trigger insert.

Unless someone is "giving away" an EAA/P9 pistol, I would not seek one out. The custom parts available and gunsmiths willing (and capable) to work on them are near non-existant. The lower power factor does make them more acceptable from a durability standpoint (they were very marginal at 175+ PF) but there are other reasons to stay away. High Cap magazines and components are also scarce.

If you pay any significant money to get the an EAA/P9, it would be cheaper/easier, in the long run, to pay more now and get a 1911 pattern pistol. Eric and I have both traveled that road and came to same conclusion independently.

Leo

[hoser]

I have to agree with Eric and Leo. My first hi-cap open gun was an EAA Gold Team in 9x21. While I loved the feel of the grips with my small hands, the gun spent more time back at the Custom Shop than it did on the range. I finally got a TRI (forerunner of S*I) and my scores immediately went up 10%-15%. I still have that Gold Team in the vault but I cannot in good faith sell it to anyone, the gun is basically a boat anchor.

Arnie

[eerw]

I had one..really like the shape and feel of the gun ( Springfield P9 LSP) ...but it was termendous labor on the part of my gunsmith to get it up and running..I can remember him dulling cutters because I wanted the barrel to come out the front like a 1911, I can remember having to weld up the sear block to make sure it did not move under recoil and making him checker the frame and weld the triggerguard and the grip safety...

The EEA thumbsafety is pretty bad...you need big hands to get to the point where you have the leverage to operate it..Springfield made a better ambi for it..that you could get away with short thumbs.

The EAA 38 super version made the grip way too big..so for me not useable...

and I could never get my WCPI bigstick to run..

if I found my old one..or a Springfield Custom shop P9 worldcup or a George Huening P9.

..I would get it..but I wouldn't seek out an EAA gun..

just my .02

[DJPoLo]

Is anyone out there still shooting a P9/Witness open gun (9mm Major or 9x21)?

Is it still competetive with the STI/SV/Caspian?

I'm thinking about getting a used P9/Witness, to get back into open class. I've been gone from open class for a while and wanted to get back into it. Don't have a lot of money to spend with a baby on the way.

I'm still shooting a couple. Here's my EAA Witness Gold Team in 9x21.

And here's my Springfield P9 also in 9x21. (Here's a shot of it before being chopped up)

The P9 is now a steel gun, but the EAA is my main IPSC gun. I guess I've been fortunate compared to the previous posters as these guns have run pretty well all their lives and are still going strong.

However, keep in mind, even I am getting ready to retire these in favor of a Dawson MiniGun Stroker (STI frame in .38 supercomp).

-Chet

[jhgtyre]

I may be biased, I have one for sale in the classifieds, but I have owned many EAA guns and the CZ75s they are copies of and all them have been very good to me. I usually end up selling guns only when they don't fit a niche for me any longer.

To date I have owned:

• Witness compact 9mm
  
• Witness full size 40s&w
  
• Witness full size 9mm
  
• CZ75B SA Factory scoped gun with a custom comped top end
  
• CZ75B 9mm
  
• Witness Race gun in 9x21 and 9x19 (two top ends)
  
• CZ75 SA (That my daughter favors over the Glock I bought her)
  

I have never had a problem finding mags or springs, which seem to be what I need most often, barrels and sights are available from several different manufacturers as well.

Do STI or SVI make better guns? No doubt. Does that mean that all EAA guns are crap? It does not. If you search the boards you will find those that have had crappy guns from Les Bear, STI, SVI, Beretta, Glock, etc.... Are those companies all bad?

-ld

[mpolans]

I currently shoot an EAA Witness customized by George Huening. I've also owned P9 World Cup and currently have a STI frame open gun.

I might be in the minority here, but I really like the Witness/P9/Tanfoglio frames. Nothing fits my hand better. I've never had any big problems with it. I'm giving up a round compared to my STI, but it rarely makes a difference. My current tricked out Witness with both a limited and a open top end cost less than half of what a tricked out open STI cost.

The only downside I can think of is that the only big name gunsmith known for working on them right now is EGW. If they were imported by a decent company (EAA has been less than impressive) that was very supportive of IPSC, I'd imagine the number of smiths working on them would skyrocket.

I think they're a very reasonable alternative to the STI/SVI guns.

You can see pics of my gun here:

My gun in the gallery section.

[shred]

Yeah, whatever happened to that French guy? Eric something. He did OK with a P9/Witness/CZ style thing I think..

[BSeevers]

Great Grip

Bad slide stops and other parts

I have seen an used Open version for as low as $800 with mags!! Its the shooter not the gun but I would get a Caspian for say $1200-1500 long before a EA/CZ

[eric nielsen]

I also keep one as a boat anchor. I would not take someone's money for it, only to have them curse my name for years to come.

Maybe because I have large hands, the thumb-safety was my FAVORITE part about the whole gun. Ridiculous over-heat-treating and resulting cracks [throughout the gun] were my least favorite.

The need to constantly tinker or dial-in your spring combinations means that this gun has a really small envelope of good performance.

Get outside that envelope & you're screwed. If you're lucky&good enough to stay in that envelope, you can have fun with these guns. Did I mention "if" ??

[Al Capizzo]

Well, I think they make the best LOOKING open guns anyway.

Al

[jhgtyre]

Maybe I should start a thread about the reliability of Caspian mags and how well they have supported the sport.

[mpolans]

Caspian28r, since you hate it so much, do you have any pics of your "boat anchor?"

Got any parts you want to get rid of? I'm looking for an ambi safety (will swap an extended left side only) and the WCPI 170mm extended basepads.

[L9X25]

mpolans,

If you are questioning if Eric actually owns a P9/EAA, I can personally vouch for that fact. We both still have lots of memories with these guns, some good, many not so good.

My gun was rebuilt "full tilt" with the roller bearing trigger system, and all custom internal parts. I also have the accessories to make it a Limited gun, Bianchi gun (shroud & special barrel/comp) and a steel gun. It has a custom made ambi safety that has a solid pin just like the stock piece.

I did not suffer with the same failures as others did but I broke several slides and a barrel during the short time that it was my primary race gun. The repairs were all handled free under the "limited lifetime warranty" but they sure complained, stalled and nit picked every step of the way. They wanted to make it as painful as possible for me to collect on the warranty. I could read the writing on the wall ... they were going to void the warranty the first chance they got and I was not going to spend the money necessary to keep this beast alive with the amount of shooting that I was doing at the time. This was the time when we were shooting 180pf and things would be better with the lower power factor. Since I retired the Gold Team, I have not had a major component failure in nearly 10 years. I have literally worn out barrels but have had nothing break. The guns were cool but they were not durable.

Leo

[Carlos]

Shred wrote: "Yeah, whatever happened to that French guy? Eric something. He did OK with a P9/Witness/CZ style thing I think.. "

OK maybe its time for a new thread (perhaps in the HATE section) but why is it that only STI/SV (and the custom gunsmiths who build S_I) seem to be able to supply complete, working open guns? I mean:

That French guy wins w/ a Tanfoglio open gun. So, will EAA sell me an exact copy of Eric's gun? No? Just the Gold Team? Will EAA support it w/ warranty & repair? From what L9x25 said, apparently not. OK EAA, just sell me all the parts featured on Eric's website to make my Gold Team into the same gun Eric uses & point me in the direction of a local Glod Team smith. No gain? Its near impossible to buy even a magwell or ambi safety for one, let alone have the selection of parts we have for S_I.

Then we see Todd's performance w/ the open Para; ask any Para Ord dealer to order you an Open Para. No? OK - order me one from the Para Ord custom shop; I'm willing to pay up to the $3,000 that I would have payed for a working S_I. Still no? OK, just sell me the Factory race parts. No again??!?

Fine, I'll call Springfield Armory & buy the TGO open gun. Not for sale? OK, sell me the Springfield factory race parts to build it. No again? How about a highcap limited gun then, & make it in .40. What's that you say? All you have is a highcap .45s & single stack guns? Not even Springfield mag tubes or mag wells or base pads for sale?? What gives??

Caspian factory open gun? No? Any complete Caspian? No again.

I realize that the Open market is small & that fact translates into small demand; on top of which STI/SV has dominated the US market now. However, if the AWB expires as it should, I can't think of an excuse why these companies would not jump into the open market w/ both feet- especially since they invest so much time, $$$ & effort sending the very best shooters to win titles using only their products.

This all makes me really really appreciate how much support STI/SV gives to our sport; they even support the average Joe C class shooter w/ the STI contingency program - now THAT is what I consider support! My SV/STI is above all my favorite gun; thanks S_I!

[shred]

I think most of the time the 'factory shooter's race gun parts aren't factory parts. TJ's open gun is mostly Dawson parts. TGO has a Marvel comp and Schuemann barrel, among other things.

If I'm a big gunmaker and can crank out standard models all day long, why do I want to go to the effort of making a small-volume factory race gun that probably isn't exactly what my customers want when there are dozens of smiths that will do it for me?

I'm all for it, but if IPSC pistols aren't your bread-and-butter as a gunmaker, I can see why they don't mess with em.

[jhgtyre]

As far as durability goes it is important to note that the power factor is lower than it was in "the old days."

-ld

[Bob Hostetter]

I shot an EAA for years, and had very few problems with it. I broke a couple of slide stop pins untill I went with a CPMI pin and thats about it.

Replaced the barrel in it after about 40,000 rounds with a Bar Sto when the accuracy started going bad. That barrel has about another 25,000 rounds thru it and is going strong.

The EAA style gun needs to be built a certain way, just like 1911 based guns need to be built a certain way. There are a lot more parts available for the 1911 based guns, and that is about the only advantage I can see other then lack of factory support by EAA.

I would shoot the EAA before my STI if I could get a couple of big sticks for it. Anybody have any they want to get rid of? Even ones that don't work for you?

[mpolans]

mpolans,

If you are questioning if Eric actually owns a P9/EAA, I can personally vouch for that fact. We both still have lots of memories with these guns, some good, many not so good.

[snip]

Oh, I'm not questioning whether he owns one, I just want to see what his looks like compared to everyone elses, since you don't see too many here in the U.S. And, if the price was right, maybe I'd know someone that would want to buy it.

[eric nielsen]

I'll take digital pictures of it tomorrow when there's more light available. Right now it's an ugly Limited40. Somewhere there's a dresser drawer with the 9x21 top end [complete with multiple cracks]. Still has my favorite magwell ever. [EGW]

Sold the 9mm mags, guess I could sell the 40 mags [14rd] with a clear conscience - they still work.

In all fairness, when the Limited EAA came out it was fairly trick to own because 170mm mags/pads were legal in Ltd, then it was "factory standard" length, and either way it held more rounds as the only other steel hi-cap gun that worked - the Para 45 with 14-15round factory mag/pads.

Glocks worked fine but back then there were almost no spare or aftermarket parts to be had. Put the gun in a box, send it to Glock, and they'll send it back like new - 6lb trigger & all. In Open, there was never a complete gun available once single-stack and iron-sites went obsolete. People who gripe about their "only a factory gun" STI Competitor don't know how good they have it. STI & SV are great.

I love the post by Carlos. I'm sure many custom gunsmiths hate it. And the "gun" manufacturers he mentions. They hate it too...

PS - One more time - If you're right-handed, you don't need an ambi-safety.

[mpolans]

I'm a lefty.

[eric nielsen]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...t=0#entry169044

The links work now...

MPolans - Not an ambi expert, sounds like you need one. Your George Huening model is a helluvalot nicer than mine.

Pic 1 is the poster-child for "don't make your own sideports". Waste of a nice carbide cutter [the only thing that gets thru Tanfoglio-hard steel]

[Jody Waring]

I have been shooting P9 frames with EAA/Tanfoglio parts as well as aftermarket since 1993. I have sheared one barrell lug, and had 1 slide crack, Zero broken or bent slide stops. Number of rounds? I couldn't even guess to be honest. I don't believe Eric only shoots Tanfoglio because he has small hands, I believe he shot them even before they sponsored him, could "choice" or "personal preference" be the reasons-and I mean not just for the grip size. Caspian mags supposively can be modified to work in the large frame Tanfo and I know that Eric is getting 29 rounds in his big stick. If built properly they will run and run and,...

you get the picture. When they were busting apart, that stigma is still attached to them, even with the IPSC power factor of 160, which is MUCH more tolerable for these guns. There were only a few I know of who did them properly, that last; EGW, WCPi, and for us in Canada, Paul Barrette, Josef Dlask, and Don Irvine. We have a mandated 10 round legal limit, so I wish I could worry about someone having more rounds than me . EAA doesn't support the Tanfoglio line of guns that can be had elsewhere, or nearly any of the parts, which sucks. I wish there was another importer, as I think they could/would be popular if the full line was offered. It may make more sense to shoot another platform, just for availability of parts,...or just plan on it not breaking, and shoot what you like

[ErikW]

There were only a few I know of who did them properly

Add Bruce Gray to the list. I've got a second-hand P9 he built. The welded-up beavertail and mag well are works of art. The gun runs and runs and runs at 175 PF. It does break EGW pins with lighter bullets. I haven't shot it at 165 PF, which I'm sure would be a big help. I've been thinking of bringing it back as a Steel Challenge gun.