Introducing PractiScore

[CHA-LEE]

Cha-Lee, that's sounds far-fetched to me. You still need to remember who shot before the current shooter.

Anyhow, I think this issue can be addressed by introducing a separate "per-stage random order" option. It need to be calculated up-front for all shooters and all stages, so no re-calculation necessary when changing stage and that would work across multiple synced devices too...

I don't know why it would be so far fetched. That is how we do it at about 10 different USPSA clubs here in Colorado. The shooting order is called out when we get to the stage and we keep calling out the Shooter, On Deck and In the Hole names as we churn through the squad while shooting the stage.

I don't understand why you would need to sync the "Random" shooting order across multiple devices? Random is just that, random. Locally the squads get issued a scoring device at the start of the match and they use that same device the whole match. Then turn it in at the end of the mach and the scores are then synced with the master device and uploaded from there.

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to add some back ground to how we do it locally. When the shooters sign up we have "Self Squadding" paper lists set out right before they pay and register. The shooters put their name on one of the squad lists (usually 4 - 5 different squad lists) then when they register and pay we ask them which squad they signed up on. During registration we keep an eye on the paper squad lists to see if one is getting disproportionally larger than the others and will pull out that squad list in order to force the shooters to sign up on other squads. Doing the self squadding this way allows shooters to squad with their buddies and also allows us to keep the squads balanced evenly. Since all of the shooters are already assigned to a squad all the Squad Mom has to do is select the squad they are on when they go to score the stages. This saves the shooters and squad mom's a lot of time trying to find all of the shooters on their squad out of a large master list of shooters. We regularly get 60 - 80 shooter matches here and the list gets long. Doing it this way also eliminates the last minute migration of shooters from one squad to the next causing an imbalance of squad sizes and that will lead to a squad log jam during the match.

The self squadding method works really well for local matches and if one squad does get imbalanced and we have to manually move shooters to other squads that is done right before the match by telling the score keeper to move XYZ and ABC shooter from Squad 1 to Squad 3 or whatever. Then we communicate the change during the shooters meeting. During the shooters meeting the score keepers have a sold squadding of all the shooters and they start the process of propagating the match and registration over to all of the scoring devices. Then hand out the scoring devices by the end of the stage walk through's.

When the squads get the scoring device, they select the stage they are starting on and then call out the shooting order (Which is random) while taking roll call. They shoot the stage and score it. Then move to the next stage. Call out the new shooting order (Which is random again) and shoot the stage and score it. This is repeated for all stages. When all of the stages are completed the Squad Mom turns the scoring device into the stats team and they sync the scores with the master then when all of the scores are synced they upload it to the PC and import it into EZWin Score. They validate the scores then upload them to USPSA and email them out to our section e-mail list. Match is done.

Edited November 23, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[euxx]

I don't know why it would be so far fetched.

I was mostly referring to your points: "Simply switch to the next stage and start running shooters from the top down. Instead of "Who shot last time?" and "That and its nobody's fault in how the shooting order is listed, its the devices fault." In other words, you could just say "no whining allowed" to all of those "lame excuses" and be done with it.

That is how we do it at about 10 different USPSA clubs here in Colorado. The shooting order is called out when we get to the stage and we keep calling out the Shooter, On Deck and In the Hole names as we churn through the squad while shooting the stage.

I don't understand why you would need to sync the "Random" shooting order across multiple devices? Random is just that, random. Locally the squads get issued a scoring device at the start of the match and they use that same device the whole match. Then turn it in at the end of the mach and the scores are then synced with the master device and uploaded from there.

Probably doesn't matter to you and for the most part it is just technical details, but your is not the only way how Practiscore is used on different matches. So, it can't just support your scenario only and has to be consistent all the way across.

Also, I don't think exiting stage and getting back is an issue with StageScore (because you can't add/edit shooters on devices), but it is an issue with Practiscore. Hence randomizing the list every time you exit/enter stage (even not the same one) is a great idea. For example, half of the squad shot stage and then scorer exited stage screen, so the shooters list will be shuffled(e.g. hit Back button too many times or needed to do something in the competitors list or even sync match scores).

You actually want just a random order at every stage. That can be done, so same order need to stay for a given stage (unless scorer explicitly randomize it manually).

[CHA-LEE]

Random Order at every stage is what we want. StageScore does it this way. You can actually exit out of the "Score Competitors" screen and go back in and the "Random" shooting order is not changed. The only time it changes the random shooting order automatically is if you "Lock" a different stage. For example, you could "Lock" stage 1, go into "Score Competitors" and it would produce a random shooting order. If you backed out, then "Locked" stage 2, then "Locked" stage 1, and went back into "Score Competitors" the shooting order would be re-randomized. So short of locking different stages the random shooting order is persistent when moving around in the different menu's. For example, a shooter is added to your squad at the last minute. You could back out of "Score Competitors" and go into the "Competitor List" and find the new shooter, change his squad number to yours, then go back into the "Score Competitors" screen and the same Random shooting order would be listed, the only change would be the new shooter is now added to the list.

Edited November 23, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[euxx]

Now you lost me.

Not sure what "Lock stage" mean in StageScore. Also from your description it is not clear if order is the same across multiple stages until stage been "locked"...

[wgnoyes]

...

I agree with your stance if you are going from Paper to Practiscore. But here in Colorado we are going from Palm/StageScore over to Nook/Practiscore. The StageScore software has an auto random feature every time you switch from one stage to the next. This auto random feature is used at just about every local club match here. So the local shooters are expecting the same feature in PractiScore.

...

And you can't just call up the squad on the next stage, tap on the down arrow next to the sort order button, and then select "random" to get what you want?

Edited November 23, 2012 by wgnoyes

[Mark K]

Up on Soapbox -

I am sorry, and I certainly don't mean to be insulting to anyone or club, but I absolutely do not understand all the various fussing about the randomization or lack there of for shooter order.

When you did paper did you just throw them up in the air each stage and pick them up randomly?

Down this way (Area 6), every club I have shot in, and every level match I have shot at, a shooting order is established on the first stage (yeah, the new guy does not go first, some folks have to split up because they are sharing equipment, or only two are ROs and can't shoot one after the other). But once the shooting order is established, we rotate the person who shot first on Stage one, to shoot last on the 2d stage. The order of shooters never changes, so that I always know that when JimBob is shooting, I am on-deck or in the hole, whatever. I never have to worry that when I shot last on the last stage and the squad is randomized for the next I will be first on the next stage. I have basically the same pause between shooting for every stage - 14 shooters on a stage, I know that after I shoot, 13 shooters will shoot before I shoot again.

As the local MD, since we began using PS, I have yet to have a squad complain about the shooting order. IF for one of the above reasons we do not follow the shooting order on the Nook, the people on the squad all seem to remember, and just call out the next name, and insert a skipped shooter when appropriate. As MD of our matches, frequently, I am called away from my squad to settle some mess, and I have yet to come back to my squad and find them standing around waiting on me - they just say "Hey, it was your turn, but we just skipped over you. Let us know when you are ready to shoot and we will put you in".

Maybe there is an need to be able to set a specific shooting order for a squad and lock it in, maybe for major matches, but for the ones that I have worked, or shot in the last year - with or without PS in use, We show up on a stage, and the RO/Stats person asks if we have a shooting order, and if so, what it is, and they are happy to follow it, no matter what the device says.

I know some of this may differ depending on if your club keeps the device with the squad, as we do, or leaves them on the stage, as J.C.'s does. But folks, this is not rocket science. Let's keep it all simple.

I just do not think we need to have Ken's team adding more and more complexity to a relativly simple program/process. They have some really hard work to do. Like seeing if they can get the system such that we could eliminate the transfer back and forth to EZWS. You already have Random, Alphabetically by First Name, and Alphabetically by Last Name. This should work for most of us, unless your club alway go Alphabetically by first name and your name is Aaron, or Xerce.

OK - Off my soapbox.

Mark K.

[Xfactor]

Well said, Mark. (And yes, my name is Aaron, and I'm still not complaining! : )

Our stage/squad-management process is exactly the same as you describe, which I think works well. Honestly, I can't say I ever really hear any whining about shooting order in our area.

squadding - for monthly matches, I register people as they show up. I don't bother with squadding. Devices go with squad leaders. I make sure the squads roughly are the right size. They then shoot from All Shooters, or squad on just their device. Their call.

In terms of registration, we have made it a priority to minimize the steps the morning of the match in order to get on with the shooting as early as possible. To that end, I have found the following to work very well:

-- Pre-register - and squad - via Shoot 'N Score It

SSI is free, and it captures all the info needed to map-out a match.... including online self-squadding. (I keep an eye

on the number of ROs pre-registering on each squad, and make sure there is even coverage)

-- Export SSI pre-registration, import it directly into PractiScore.

There is no need to use EWS at all as an intermediary here!! The PS folks have really done us a service with this one!

SSI can export to an Excel file, which (after a few tweaks) can be saved as a .csv file that PS imports perfectly.

-- Match Day - Register walk-ons, finalize squads

There are inevitably some folks who don't pre-register, or who pre-register and don't show. But dealing with a few

changes the morning of the match is MUCH faster and easier to manage than registering everyone as they come.

At any rate, it sounds like Ken has already agreed to add a "random-per-stage" option that will work to everyone's satisfaction, so not much of a need to continue debating that.

If it's not too technically challenging to implement, I for one would appreciate the capability to drag and drop shooters when in a particular squad on a stage scoring screen... this would take the stage-to-stage memorization out of dropping down one name in the order when switching stages for those that run squads this way.

But as Mark said, there are more important fixes/tweaks that the PS folks are working on, so really no need to go nuts over shooting order options at this point.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Xfactor

[Glock27]

Our club is about to jump on the electronic scoring bandwagon using PractiScore. It would sure be nice if it supported SCSA Steel matches too.

[Mark K]

Our club is about to jump on the electronic scoring bandwagon using PractiScore. It would sure be nice if it supported SCSA Steel matches too.

At EAGC we have been using PS for Steel matches for most of this year. Set your stages up as a 5 steel stage, with 5 strings. The only thing we have to fudge right now, is to mentally add miss time penalties to your string time, and then after all 5 strings, show the shooter the longest one, and Zero it out.

Works great.

Mark K.

[Glock27]

Got this reply to my inquiry to PractiScore:

"Yes we do plan to add better support for SteelChallenge. PractiScore can be used for that now but we understand that it's not ideal. We'll be adding support for tracking per-string scores and dropping the worst." - Devin

[sperman]

I wish they had gotten it 100% for USPSA before they decided to add scoring for every other shooting competition.

[steel1212]

I wish they had gotten it 100% for USPSA before they decided to add scoring for every other shooting competition.

They got it pretty damn close. You eventually just have to through the anvil out there and see what breaks. They are doing a pretty damn good job of updating it as we find problems best I can tell.

[euxx]

I wish they had gotten it 100% for USPSA before they decided to add scoring for every other shooting competition.

Could you please elaborate what's in your opinion is missing for USPSA?

[Rob Tompkins]

I'm the MD at a small-ish shooing club in North Alabama and run a monthly IDPA match and outlaw 3-gun (more USPSA than anthing else). We just got two Nexus 7 tablets to run Practioscore and I use my Razr phone as a hotspot for networking. We've use Practiscore once for an IDPA match and it was great sucess! :-) Thanks for all the hard work to produce and maintain the sofware.

I sent Santa my wish list, I hope he reads it but I'll put it here just incase he reads this first:

- IDPA support for Android OS w/ results that show the IDPA penelities (HTN, FTN, PE, FTDR, points down) independently per stage and in summay -- not just a roll up of penelity times as well as per stage placement overall in combined and Placement in Division in Divison results.

- Ability to export to a spreadsheet. We have a lot of geeks that like to do analysis of their scores.

- An online regestration utility on the Practiscore page that proiduces a easy to download registration list directly in to the local device

Really the only thing I feel is really needed is showing penelities independently per stage - that is the most requested change by the local shooters.

Thanks again for producing Practiscore,

Rob Tompkins

[Ken N.]

Rob,

Thanks for the kind words - glad it worked well.

Eugene and Devin can comment more precisely on the timing for the technical changes. I'm the "head" but I defer to their personal schedules on development issues and I do not pressure them, other than to prioritize what work they can do on the system. It's all part time for the 4 of us working on it. Me, Eugene, Devin, Bryan (web), and Dave (web).

On your specific questions/requests:

Android IDPA support is being worked on at this very instance. It will come, but Eugene who is working the Android version now has just come on to the squad. I'm very impressed with his skills, and know it will come out solid - but he's got a learning curve, so it will come when it comes. But I'd expect it to be pretty soon.

Spreadsheet export... I'd be interested in suggestions as to what to export. I mean we can expose the JSON underbelly with ALL information.

Or simply put the stage scores out in a CSV form. Ideas welcome.

I'm currently beta testing online registration system - well if beta testing means running HaH multigun, and 680 registrations so far Area 1 championship.

Its working well for me and we will be making public access sometime early in 2013. It also has slick squadding, and the match management features are

at our facility this year. The only thing keeping me sane as I do Practiscore, my real job, Area 1, HaH, regular USPSA matches, 3 steel matches a week, and prep to do 2013 back to back Nationals at our facility. Managing area 1 really is pretty simple with it, a few minutes a day to keep up with changes.

Shoot N Score, a perfectly fine system, is in use by a number of clubs and they have a direct export to PractiScore.

My development of a PractiScore branded system doesn't reflect anything on their system other than I needed specific things to manage the large matches I run, so I had one of my guys whip something up.

I'm tired, long day - so I'm not following the procedurals by stage question. I'll look at it again tomorrow when I'm rested, but if you have time clarify for me I'd appreciate it. Its probably obvious, and I'm just dense at 11:30 tonight. (-:

Thanks again, and I hope Santa is good to you!

Ken N.

[wgnoyes]

Where's the direct export to PS in SSI? I don't see it anywhere.

[sperman]

First let me say that this is an awesome project. I don't know who's funding it, but the fact that it is free to the end users is a great thing.

I hope my previous post didn't come across as negative. I just wish a few more of the USPSA issues had been worked out before it turned into an all in one program.

I don't do stats, and I haven't shot a match with PS in a couple of months, so maybe some of these issues have already been addressed.

I just finished skimming through 600+ posts. What a fun morning. Most of the issues below were reported in the spring or early summer.

As noted previously, there is a minor UI issue for FTE's, since the penalty scoring box is on the screen before you get to the paper target scoring screen. The scorekeeper will have to tell the RO "hold on", go back to the previous page to tap the penalty box, call out the "1 FTE", and then go back to the paper target scoring screen, and scroll down to the next scoring row. Not too bad, but it does break scoring the flow.

I would prefer to see the procedural box on the targets page, as the total is usually not known until scoring is complete.

Maybe this feature will not be changed, but I agree with SD. It would be nice to be able to enter procedural penalties while scoring targets.

One thing I've suggested (that would take some rule support) is a system in which the competitor initials with their finger on the screen - or, alternatively, has their photo taken with a thumbs up gesture to accept the score. The key would be the application software (Iphone or Droid) being designed so that ANY change to the score in the device after such a "signature" would cause said captured signature or "thumbs up" to be erased - so there would be no way any RO or match official could change a score and leave it signed. This would provide the ability to verify a score was the one accepted by the shooter (assuming the integrity of the software was not impeached).

I know it has been talked about that the paper scoresheet is what gets signed, but I still think the scores should be digitally locked once the shooter adds their digital initials. There was a post that talked about a discrepancy in the date stamp if something was changed after the scores were submitted, but how often would someone catch that?

Also in scoring, it would seem useful to have a button on the bottom of the target scoring screen that would simultaneously save the score and display the "Review score screen." As it is, if the shooter or the scorer wants to review the shooter's score after scoring the targets, you have to go "back" and then "review scores" and then go "back" and then "save" OR "save" which takes you to the squad list, and then redisplay the shooter and hit "review scores" and then hit "back" and then "save" again. The process I suggest is score targets, hit one button that saves the scores and opens the "review scores" window, and then hit a button on that window that takes you back to the squad.

Definitely not a bug, but something I think would make life easier.

Also, when you DQ someone there's no field to put the reason or referenced rule. We'd need that to be in there somewhere.

Ken mentioned back in April this would be fixed in the next release, but I still don't see where you enter a reason for the DQ.

--If for any reason the score for a stage needs to be redone (i.e. a reshoot), then there does not appear to be a way to clear the results other than row by row.

That reminds me of another suggestion... we have had a couple instances of either a reshoot or entering scores on the wrong competitors entry... a very small and out of the way button for "clear targets" would be helpful instead of having to press and hold each target to clear them if the need arises.

This almost got me at a L2 match earlier in the year. All of the targets were cleared, but the procedurals weren't.

I will also grant that for L2 matches that procedurals need to be more specific (FTE vs foot fault, etc).

Ken, how about recording actual rules/causes for penalties and DQs when scoring USPSA/IPSC matches?

[sperman]

One more suggestion. Let's get USPSA to give this software the support it deserves, and make it the modern day replacement for EZWinScore.

[Glock27]

One more suggestion. Let's get USPSA to give this software the support it deserves, and make it the modern day replacement for EZWinScore.

^^This!

[raz-0]

I only have one feature request of the software, and that is that the current android version doesn't seem to warn you you are leaving the scoring screen without entering a time. My volunteer types were getting all sorts of not happy about that and one shooter got screwed by a scorekeeper not paying attention. There were some other issues, but as far as I cna tell they are bugs, since the documentation implies they should behave differently than they do.

[Rob Tompkins]

Rob,

Thanks for the kind words - glad it worked well.

Eugene and Devin can comment more precisely on the timing for the technical changes. I'm the "head" but I defer to their personal schedules on development issues and I do not pressure them, other than to prioritize what work they can do on the system. It's all part time for the 4 of us working on it. Me, Eugene, Devin, Bryan (web), and Dave (web).

On your specific questions/requests:

Android IDPA support is being worked on at this very instance. It will come, but Eugene who is working the Android version now has just come on to the squad. I'm very impressed with his skills, and know it will come out solid - but he's got a learning curve, so it will come when it comes. But I'd expect it to be pretty soon.

Spreadsheet export... I'd be interested in suggestions as to what to export. I mean we can expose the JSON underbelly with ALL information.

Or simply put the stage scores out in a CSV form. Ideas welcome.

I'm currently beta testing online registration system - well if beta testing means running HaH multigun, and 680 registrations so far Area 1 championship.

Its working well for me and we will be making public access sometime early in 2013. It also has slick squadding, and the match management features are

at our facility this year. The only thing keeping me sane as I do Practiscore, my real job, Area 1, HaH, regular USPSA matches, 3 steel matches a week, and prep to do 2013 back to back Nationals at our facility. Managing area 1 really is pretty simple with it, a few minutes a day to keep up with changes.

Shoot N Score, a perfectly fine system, is in use by a number of clubs and they have a direct export to PractiScore.

My development of a PractiScore branded system doesn't reflect anything on their system other than I needed specific things to manage the large matches I run, so I had one of my guys whip something up.

I'm tired, long day - so I'm not following the procedurals by stage question. I'll look at it again tomorrow when I'm rested, but if you have time clarify for me I'd appreciate it. Its probably obvious, and I'm just dense at 11:30 tonight. (-:

Thanks again, and I hope Santa is good to you!

Ken N.

Thanks for the reply.

The most common way IDPA scores for major matches are displyed is total score, total number of # points, total #FTN, # HNT, #PE and then total score foe each stage noting the total points for that stage. (example: http://www.midtnshooters.com/Results%20-%202012%20Tennessee%20State%20IDPA%20%20Championships.pdf) Clubs that have not purcashed the IDPA scoring software from Beach Bunny use a wide range of Excel spreadsheets that mimic in some form the Beach Bunny software output.

If we could see the results in a manner similar to the Beach Bunny output (i.e., total score / total points / total PE / total FTN / total HNT) with each stage score noting points down on that stage that would be great. To date this has been the only real complaint on the way Practiscore shows Time Plus scoring. Though everyone loves the way Practiscore shows stage rankings! :-)

For export to a CSV, for each shooter it would be great to get stage #, raw time, points down, HTN, PE, FTN, that would be useful but its not a critical issue.

Relatieve to SSI, I'll go look at that again. I don't reacall a direct export to Practiscore. I have used the export to CSV feature but then I've had to post process the spreadsheet for Practiscore import.

Thanks again for all the work and a great product.

[euxx]

I only have one feature request of the software, and that is that the current android version doesn't seem to warn you you are leaving the scoring screen without entering a time. My volunteer types were getting all sorts of not happy about that and one shooter got screwed by a scorekeeper not paying attention.

Already done in 1.0.14.

There were some other issues, but as far as I cna tell they are bugs, since the documentation implies they should behave differently than they do.

Any specifics?

Edited December 13, 2012 by euxx

[Ken N.]

It's quite possible the docs are a bit behind. That's my area, and I'm permanently swamped.

WRT IDPA feedback from Rob - thanks. I've sent that feedback to Devin, Eugene sees it here, and they can sort out between them changes to the output.

SSI input... my only direct experience is indirect, now that I read back on it, I guess it was export to CSV and then some slight mods to column headers to align with PractiScore input needs.

Ken N.

[Rob Tompkins]

It's quite possible the docs are a bit behind. That's my area, and I'm permanently swamped.

WRT IDPA feedback from Rob - thanks. I've sent that feedback to Devin, Eugene sees it here, and they can sort out between them changes to the output.

SSI input... my only direct experience is indirect, now that I read back on it, I guess it was export to CSV and then some slight mods to column headers to align with PractiScore input needs.

Ken N.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope my comments don't imply any displeasure with Practiscore, on the whole I, as the MD and the local shooters are happy to have moved from paper to electronic scoring and Practicsore allowed that to happen. My comments just reflect a desire to put icing on the cake! :-)