Ken N. Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Cha-lee - it is that way because some folks like to randomize the order, but then keep it and shift one shooter down from stage to stage. I suppose we could make it an option, as there isn't a way to satisfy both desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I have a question about the PractiScore Exporter utility. Now that the EZWin to PractiScore utility has been created to capture the Match and Registration database it would be a lot easier if the PractiScore Exporter Utility could be updated to allow the match/registration database to be downloaded from the PC to the Nook/iPad. Hell it would make more sense to integrate the EZWin to PractiScore utility into the PractiScore Exporter Utility and do it all at once. That way you only need to use one utility to move the Match/Registration down to the scoring device then the same utility to move the scores from the devices back to the PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Cha-lee - it is that way because some folks like to randomize the order, but then keep it and shift one shooter down from stage to stage. I suppose we could make it an option, as there isn't a way to satisfy both desires. The "Competition" software (StageScore) works the way I described. It allows you to sort the shooters by Name, Shooter Number, or Random. When using that software and the squad wants a fairly "Random" initial shooting order but then keep the same order and shift down one or two each stage its best to use "Shooter Number" then shift it down how many you want when going from stage to stage. If you want clubs to move from StageScore over to PractiScore simple features like how the randomization works needs to be fairly similar. Just for your information, we use to use StageScore and currently the only gripe our shooters have is about how the Randomization needs to b redone manually every stage. All of the local USPSA clubs here in Colorado have been using the Palm/StageScore solution for match scoring and 99% of the time we simply use the "Random" shooter sorting method for the club matches. The only time we use something different is if a bay has two stages on it and we use two scoring devices (one for each stage). In that case we sort the shooters by Name or by Shooter Number so that both devices are in sync with the shooting orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Classifier lookup... on the list. I'll explain a bit more on that in December after we have some tech meetings with USPSA. Flagging Re-entries... Hmmm... it shows the shooter with Division in the name field if it is a re-entry. Let me know more what you are looking for here. support@practiscore.com On Android, it shows division for all shooters in the name field, so there's no way to distinguish re-entries. (Showing division for all is a good thing - for re-entries I'd suggest a simple "RE" flag) This has caused scoring mistakes every month at my club... Devin and I have traded e-mails on this a couple times - I was hoping it was in the works at this point. Edited November 19, 2012 by Xfactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Classifier lookup... on the list. I'll explain a bit more on that in December after we have some tech meetings with USPSA. Flagging Re-entries... Hmmm... it shows the shooter with Division in the name field if it is a re-entry. Let me know more what you are looking for here. support@practiscore.com On Android, it shows division for all shooters in the name field, so there's no way to distinguish re-entries. (Showing division for all is a good thing - for re-entries I'd suggest a simple "RE" flag) This has caused scoring mistakes every month at my club... We avoid this problem by putting re-shoots in a new squad. i.e. 1st gun is squad 1, reshoot or 2nd gun is squad 91. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 We avoid this problem by putting re-shoots in a new squad... Good idea... I think I'll go that route until this is sorted out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 We've put flagging re-entries on the short list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Cha-Lee - we will add mode for automatic re-randomization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Cha-Lee - we will add mode for automatic re-randomization. Ken, with adding shooters on multiple devices it gets more complicated. In my understanding what Cha-Lee is asking is to get initial random order, but then keep that same random order between stages, just shifting competitors down each stage. Basically randomization has to happen at the time competitors added, so after syncing and scoring with multiple devices we could keep the same order. I am not sure if automatically moving to next competitor would be a good idea, because squads can be split in half or use some other short-curs according to range/bay layouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I thought it was the other way, that he wanted it to randomize when he changed stages automagically. Cha-Lee - clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Cha-Lee - we will add mode for automatic re-randomization. Ken, with adding shooters on multiple devices it gets more complicated. In my understanding what Cha-Lee is asking is to get initial random order, but then keep that same random order between stages, just shifting competitors down each stage. Basically randomization has to happen at the time competitors added, so after syncing and scoring with multiple devices we could keep the same order. I am not sure if automatically moving to next competitor would be a good idea, because squads can be split in half or use some other short-curs according to range/bay layouts. That is not my request. My request is that the shooters on the squad be automatically randomized every time you switch from one stage to another. Edited November 20, 2012 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 That is not my request. My request is that the shooters on the squad be automatically randomized every time you switch from one stage to another. Oh, I am sorry. Your message had two conflicting statements: "...When using that software and the squad wants a fairly "Random" initial shooting order but then keep the same order and shift down one or two each stage its best to use "Shooter Number" then shift it down how many you want when going from stage to stage..." So, you just want randomization to be automatic every time you change stage? But there isn't really an indication of stage change in PractiScore, because you may need to go back and forth between main screen and squad list screen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Would it be posible to allow us to maually re-order shooters? Since most squads start with a given order (be it randomized, by last name, by competitor number, etc.), but then move the first shooter to the end after each stage, it would be great to be able to drag-and-drop shooters into a custom order where so-desired. Edited November 20, 2012 by Xfactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Would it be posible to allow us to maually re-order shooters? Since most squads start with a given order (be it randomized, by last name, by competitor number, etc.), but then move the first shooter to the end after each stage, it would be great to be able to drag-and-drop shooters into a custom order where so-desired. There is already an enhancement request on PS issue tracker about that. BUT personally I'd avoid messing with the order (especially when scoring on multiple devices). The less you change - the better. Also keep in mind that things can get more complicated when you take into account different variations of scoring on multiple devices (device per-stage or device per-squad, etc). Most large matches go by competitor number and with smaller matches it could be just simpler to have squad list on paper and don't bother with squadding in Practiscore (e.g. pick the next shooter from the "all shooters" list). Though some may argue that we are trying to go completely paperless... Also worth to mention drag-and-drop won't work too well on devices with small screens (e.g. ipod touch) and on Nooks. Anyhow, that's only my thoughts Ken may have different opinion on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Thanks for the heads-up - gald to hear it's on the list. At my club, we keep the Nooks with the squads... and I always assign shooters to squads before syncing all the Nooks and handing them out to each squad. I'm not sure why changing around the order would cause any issues, as it's really just a sort (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JYC405 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Just an FYI Barnes and Noble have the Nook simple touch on a one day special of $59 Friday in store only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Good tip JYC405 We test on the Nooks, but I'd never really used them in a match. But I used Nooks at a recent hosefest, 60 round stage, match in Las Vegas. I was very worried they wouldn't keep up. So worried I brought 10 iPods and 4 iPads with me "in case". I was pleasantly surprised at how well they kept up. They have a couple UI oddities, especially with scrolling through 30 targets, but once you got accustomed it was no problem. I'm going to go to our local B&N and score as many of these $59 dollar ones that they will sell me. My plan is to keep using iPods / iPads on our USPSA matches, but to use Nooks for our Tue, Thu, and Sat steel matches. I still do not recommend them for registration, too slow/awkward, but for scoring, fine. We used 2 iPads to register/confirm registrations and then synched to 8 Nooks. Ken N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Cha-lee - it is that way because some folks like to randomize the order, but then keep it and shift one shooter down from stage to stage. I suppose we could make it an option, as there isn't a way to satisfy both desires. If you've got the initial random order, how tough is it to remember from stage to stage who shot last and just pick the next one after him/her for the next stage? Aren't we doing that now, and have been doing it for years with paper matches? That is to say, just because we have practiscore now doesn't necessarily mean we should expect it to do EVERYTHING for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 At my club, we keep the Nooks with the squads... and I always assign shooters to squads before syncing all the Nooks and handing them out to each squad. I'm not sure why changing around the order would cause any issues, as it's really just a sort (?) If you have one nook per squad the impact is minimal. Except that shooters will have to constantly check with that Nook who is the next shooter and someone already mentioned there are some issues with that, because the way scrolling is working on Nooks, you can't see previous/next shooter in some cases. But if match is run with a separate device per-bay or separate device per-stage (when there is more then one stage in a given bay), re-sorting will be only confusing the squad... Like Ken said, it is impossible to satisfy everything, so it will be better to focus on the most common uses and in some cases adopt /change certain practices when running matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 The one thing I'd really like to see is better protection against editing an already-saved score. Right now you can click a competitor that's already been scored and immediately start making changes. When you hit Back, it does prompt you whether you want to save, but experience suggests that less technical individuals may just click through that warning without realizing the consequences. Contrast this behavior with StageScore for Palm, where the user is prompted before they are able to edit a score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Cha-lee - it is that way because some folks like to randomize the order, but then keep it and shift one shooter down from stage to stage. I suppose we could make it an option, as there isn't a way to satisfy both desires. If you've got the initial random order, how tough is it to remember from stage to stage who shot last and just pick the next one after him/her for the next stage? Aren't we doing that now, and have been doing it for years with paper matches? That is to say, just because we have practiscore now doesn't necessarily mean we should expect it to do EVERYTHING for us? I agree with your stance if you are going from Paper to Practiscore. But here in Colorado we are going from Palm/StageScore over to Nook/Practiscore. The StageScore software has an auto random feature every time you switch from one stage to the next. This auto random feature is used at just about every local club match here. So the local shooters are expecting the same feature in PractiScore. We have tried a lot of different ways to deploy the squad listing and settling on "Random Every Stage" squashes all bitching and whining. That and its one less thing for people to worry about. Simply switch to the next stage and start running shooters from the top down. Instead of "Who shot last time?" "I don't want to go before/after Joe Blow because of some lame excuse". With a Random seeding of the shooting order there is no choice in how the order should be run. You simply run the list that comes up, no whining allowed. That and its nobody's fault in how the shooting order is listed, its the devices fault. For some reason people usually don't whine at/about inanimate objects, such as a Nook or a Palm. Make it a persons fault and the whining never stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Cha-Lee, that's sounds far-fetched to me. You still need to remember who shot before the current shooter. Anyhow, I think this issue can be addressed by introducing a separate "per-stage random order" option. It need to be calculated up-front for all shooters and all stages, so no re-calculation necessary when changing stage and that would work across multiple synced devices too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 A few topics going on at once here... a) randomization - we will add an option for automatic randomization. It will be in the current list "Alphabetic, Hit Factor, Random, Random When Stage Changed" squadding - for monthly matches, I register people as they show up. I don't bother with squadding. Devices go with squad leaders. I make sure the squads roughly are the right size. They then shoot from All Shooters, or squad on just their device. Their call. c) protection against an already entered score. Yes - we need a confirmation before editing occurs. If a reshoot, then clear the score for easier scoring. Another feature from Stagescore we will add is locking a device to a stage as well. This would have helped me a lot at a recent big match I scored. On the last day a very competent crew of ROs somehow scored all their shooters on the wrong stage. This happened because I don't synch scores to the stage devices. I will until we add the stage lock feature. Happy Thanksgiving! Ken N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 A few topics going on at once here... Really should lock this topic and/or break it into a separate topics for each discussion/issue/etc. a) randomization - we will add an option for automatic randomization. It will be in the current list "Alphabetic, Hit Factor, Random, Random When Stage Changed" Call it "Random per-stage". The order should be generated at the beginning for all to keep order consistent when you enter/exit stage screen (e.g. to add/edit another shooter). squadding - for monthly matches, I register people as they show up. I don't bother with squadding. Devices go with squad leaders. I make sure the squads roughly are the right size. They then shoot from All Shooters, or squad on just their device. Their call. +1 to that c) protection against an already entered score. Yes - we need a confirmation before editing occurs. If a reshoot, then clear the score for easier scoring. How about just show the "Review" screen when scores are present and add an "Edit" button to modify when necessary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Concur to all Eugene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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