Introducing PractiScore

[euxx]

It sounds like you're syncing the NST's FROM the master multiple times during the match? If so, why?

Because have to add new walk-in competitors to all devices.

Our policy is that after the initial sync, devices are almost never synced from the master again. The master always syncs FROM the stage devices to accumulate scores. The fewer changes and mucking around with the stage devices decreases the chances of losing data on them.

Unfortunately not an option here. We are using this at the evening club matches, so competitors are not known up front and they are walking in in groups of 2..3 people every 5..15 minutes trough the evening and has to be added to the queue.

I've also considered adding walk-ins directly on one of device and keeping device with that competitor, but this does require one device per-competitor and we may end up running 8-people squad/rotation at the end. So, it doesn't really an option either.

[Ken N.]

Extra help.... Chat with Josh on that. I'm assuming Android here. I betcha he'd welcome a fresh look at the synching process. We hit the wall on it. If you and he can work out a plan, I'm up for it.

[wgnoyes]

Couple question to developers.

Are there plans to move penalties to the target screen and adding option to select comments/details on those penalties (e.g. failed to engage, shooting outside shooting area, etc) and/or actual rule number (uspsa and/or ipsc).

With large number of slave devices (with 3..5 NSTs it is already painful) it would be really really helpful (and also much faster/easier) to be able to push competitor changes from master to all the slaves (instead of from pulling from master individually on each slave). In my experience it takes several minutes to sync 4 NSTs with master and it doesn't help that NSTs don't remember last entered sync ids. So, you have to go 5 or 6 levels up, then switch to sync page, then correctly type master sync id on NST and then find your way back to the current stage/squad...

It sounds like you're syncing the NST's FROM the master multiple times during the match? If so, why?

Our policy is that after the initial sync, devices are almost never synced from the master again. The master always syncs FROM the stage devices to accumulate scores. The fewer changes and mucking around with the stage devices decreases the chances of losing data on them.

So if you don't register new people in the master after the match has begun (I'm thinking next weekend) and don't sync to the stage devices again at some convenient down point, how do they get into the stage devices without the risk of there being 2 or more copies of "joe walkup" in the match?

[jcwren]

<snip>

It sounds like you're syncing the NST's FROM the master multiple times during the match? If so, why?

Our policy is that after the initial sync, devices are almost never synced from the master again. The master always syncs FROM the stage devices to accumulate scores. The fewer changes and mucking around with the stage devices decreases the chances of losing data on them.

So if you don't register new people in the master after the match has begun (I'm thinking next weekend) and don't sync to the stage devices again at some convenient down point, how do they get into the stage devices without the risk of there being 2 or more copies of "joe walkup" in the match?

Hard cut-off. First shot is at 10am, with registration cut-off of 9:50am. We don't have any non-shooting staff. The MD, the money-man, and the registration folks are shooters. There are no walk-on's or late shooters. 'cause if you're late, you don't shoot!

GA State has to be a little different, by the nature of being four half-day sessions. But even there, according to the match book, and I quote: "A competitor who is not present at the scheduled time and date for any stage may not attempt that stage without the prior approval of the Match Director, failing which the competitor’s score for that stage will be zero.(6.5.1)."

The MD isn't real tolerant of this kind of thing, so we suggest you allow enough time to be there on time.

We've had some people who are chronic late-shows. They've learned the hard way to be there on time.

Edited September 1, 2012 by jcwren

[euxx]

GA State has to be a little different, by the nature of being four half-day sessions. But even there, according to the match book, and I quote: "A competitor who is not present at the scheduled time and date for any stage may not attempt that stage without the prior approval of the Match Director, failing which the competitor’s score for that stage will be zero.(6.5.1)."

That only works if you have one several squads all starting at the same time. When there are multiple start times things are quite different.

[Mark K]

For your evening matches, might I suggest what we do for our evening Steel Matches. We move the Nook ST with the squads. As shooters arrive, they are registered on the master device, and then when enough shooters are there for a squad of X number, the master is sync'd to a Nook ST, and given to a squad. That squad retains the device as they move through the stages. As more shooters arrive, the shooter continue to be added to the master device, and then sync'd to additional NSTs as necessary. The master device is always up-to-date with shooters.

FYI, for our monthly matches, we also move NSTs with the squads. If we have a walk up shooter, we add then to the NST for the Squad they join, and since the NSTs move squad, and are periodically sync'd to the Master (basically everytime a squad changes stages), the new shooter data will get updated as needed. This also is an advantage when you find that a shooter has been entered at registration in the wrong Div/class. Change it on the satellite devices, and once sync'd with the Master, it is fixed. With this model, THE ONLY TIMES DURING A Match that we sync'd from the Master down to the Satellites, is at the beginning of the match, and if we find an error in the stage layout/description (incorrect number of targets, etc).

HOWEVER, when we run the AL Sectional next year, we will be using the NST staying with the Stage model, but since we will have all shooter registered and squadded days in advance, it is an entirely different matter.

Mark K.

[jcwren]

FYI, for our monthly matches, we also move NSTs with the squads. If we have a walk up shooter, we add then to the NST for the Squad they join, and since the NSTs move squad, and are periodically sync'd to the Master (basically everytime a squad changes stages), the new shooter data will get updated as needed. This also is an advantage when you find that a shooter has been entered at registration in the wrong Div/class. Change it on the satellite devices, and once sync'd with the Master, it is fixed. With this model, THE ONLY TIMES DURING A Match that we sync'd from the Master down to the Satellites, is at the beginning of the match, and if we find an error in the stage layout/description (incorrect number of targets, etc).Mark K.

There are certain advantages to keeping the devices with the squads. Shooting order is easier to maintain for the squads, for one thing (and I *do* wish there was a drag-and-drop way or up/down arrow rearrangement feature so you can space your squad ROs out, move new shooters to the bottom, etc).

The biggest problem we potentially see is that if a device goes down, and your shooters aren't good at doing the back-up strips, then you potentially lose those shooters from the entire match. If you lose a stage device, worst case is a stage is lost from the match.

It can be argued either way about the which model is easier to sync. If you have range-wide WiFi coverage, doesn't matter much. If you don't, and you have to go from bay to bay to sync, stays-in-stage is somewhat quicker, since you know you've hit all the devices.

We've done it both ways at CGC, and use the device-stays model. At RBGC (a later adopter of PS scoring), that's the only model we've used.

I sometimes think about changing to the follows-squad model, but once we've got people trained to leave timers, Nooks, clipboards, back-up sheets and pens in bays, I hate to confuse them. It's already like herding kittens...

Edited September 2, 2012 by jcwren

[euxx]

Guys, I appreciate suggestions, but in our case it can't be resolved with just the process. We have one squad that is shooting 4 stages (one shooter each, indoor range) and all 4 stages are scored at the same time (hence 4 devices are used for scoring).

[Mark K]

Ken N is at the Blue Ridge MultiGun match this week and asked me to post the following info:

PS released a new iOS version (1.5.5) on Friday. At least for me (Mark K), it did not show up as an Upgrade, but was available as a new download/install in the AppStore.

This version includes IDPA as a match type. However, it has been discovered that there is problem with devices running an iOS version less than iOS 6. It happens when setting points down in IDPA. Devin at PS support has submitted a fix for Apple review on Friday night so it should hit the app store this weekend or possibly next Monday.

Mark K

[wgnoyes]

Well here's another issue and it apparently has been around for a while. We got a generic cheap android 4.0 tablet yesterday for the sole purpose of putting android practiscore on it and testing. In the process of doing so, I found that I cannot synch from android to iOS 1.5.5 but I CAN synch from iOS 1.5.5 back to android. I fired up my Nook Simple Touch which still has android PS 1.0.8 on it and couldn't synch from it either. Then I started up my old iphone 3GS which still had ps 1.5.4 on it and I CAN synch from either android tablet to it, so the issue is with 1.5.5. I've told the vendor about it.

[Mark K]

Well here's another issue and it apparently has been around for a while. We got a generic cheap android 4.0 tablet yesterday for the sole purpose of putting android practiscore on it and testing. In the process of doing so, I found that I cannot synch from android to iOS 1.5.5 but I CAN synch from iOS 1.5.5 back to android. I fired up my Nook Simple Touch which still has android PS 1.0.8 on it and couldn't synch from it either. Then I started up my old iphone 3GS which still had ps 1.5.4 on it and I CAN synch from either android tablet to it, so the issue is with 1.5.5. I've told the vendor about it.

ARGGGGG, I have a match this weekend and normally use my iPad for the Master, and Nooks for the squads. Guess I will test tonight. I can use a Galaxy 10.1 Tablet I can use for the Master if I have to.

OR, go back to the last version for the iOS......

Mark K.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Mark K

[wgnoyes]

Well here's another issue and it apparently has been around for a while. We got a generic cheap android 4.0 tablet yesterday for the sole purpose of putting android practiscore on it and testing. In the process of doing so, I found that I cannot synch from android to iOS 1.5.5 but I CAN synch from iOS 1.5.5 back to android. I fired up my Nook Simple Touch which still has android PS 1.0.8 on it and couldn't synch from it either. Then I started up my old iphone 3GS which still had ps 1.5.4 on it and I CAN synch from either android tablet to it, so the issue is with 1.5.5. I've told the vendor about it.

This problem has been fixed now with V1.0.11 on the android side. Works now with 1.5.5 on the iOS side.

[Mark K]

What a nightmare at the match this weekend. Match started about a hour late because of PS problems. ALL THE PROBLEMS WERE SELF INDUCED!! I register shooters with my iPad. It was on Version 1.5.3, because the Nooks were on 1.0.10. Found that they were incompatable. So, I could not download the match/shooters to the Nooks. We were ready to start shooting, scoring on paper. Finally, found a shooter with a version on his iPhone that I could down load to from my iPad, that would also then download to Nooks. BUT, the Nooks would not UPLOAD/SYNC with is iPhone. Turned out at least one of the Nooks was version 1.0.9. So we got started late, but working.

At the end of the day, I was able to upload all the Nooks (except one) to my Android Phone, and that would upload/Sync to my iPad. The one Nook that would not upload at all was ver 1.0.10, and would not even sync with other 1.0.10 Nooks. However, when I got home and upgraded it to 1.0.11, it uploaded to the iPad that was not upgraded to the version 1.5.5.

All's well that ends well, but it was a mess for a while.

Mark K

[jcwren]

I saw that you had backed your iOS version down to 1.5.3, but wasn't sure why.

I'd have been more inclined to push all the NOOKs back to 1.0.9. I have all the old versions in my Dropbox folder that's shared to you.

[Mark K]

I saw that you had backed your iOS version down to 1.5.3, but wasn't sure why.

I'd have been more inclined to push all the NOOKs back to 1.0.9. I have all the old versions in my Dropbox folder that's shared to you.

Yeah, thought the 1.5.3 was compatible with 1.0.10, remembered that I went from 1.0.9 SINCE the last USPSA match. IDPA run since the 1.0.10 upgrade, but the master there is an Android tablet.

I will be updating all Nooks to1.0.11 today because I have upgraded the iPad to 1.5.5.

Mark K

[Ken N.]

Looks like we've got Android development back on track now. Josh switched firms and his new job just doesn't let him time for moonlighting. Another programmer has graciously come on to take the Android version forward. The priorities are: fixing known bugs, then IDPA, then individual strings/penalty pairs in time-plus matches.

In the middle term (next couple months), we are adding a "What if" mode to PractiScore. As the title suggests, it will let you "See what would have happened if only..." The idea was inspired by numerous after match drives and lunches where everybody had their Practiscore devices out "what iffing". We like this, but want to formalize it, and also minimize the chance that actual scores get changed.

My initial thoughts:

- changes affect what if analysis only, never actual scores.

- what if's can be sycned, but remain "what ifs"

- elimination of mikes, procedurals, no-shoots

- identifying "problems" and associate times with them. "Jam", 5 seconds, stage 5.

- assigning your average performance to a given "bad stage". "what if I'd just shot stage 6 decent".

- results based on applying all the changes.

- individual summary report of the "cost of" errors, in terms of points, hit factor and time. (i.e. you could have slowed down 3 seconds, not got misses, and done as good)

- handicapping - this lets you assign a % to a shooter, or shooters within your group. It adjusts results accordingly. Like in golf where I give you 3 shots a 9, here I give you 6%.

The idea is to make it easy for shooters to do what they are already doing, to provide some training/practice guidance, and to make it easier to have a match with in a match between friends.

Other ideas?

Ken N.

[Ken N.]

As an aside, on strings/penalties for steel challenge, so forth.

You can do this already with PractiScore, and the most computer illiterate match director I know thought of it. Proving he isnt as computer dumb as he claims...

Let's say you have a 4 string stage, throw out the worst.

Set the stage to have 4 strings, which PractiScore lets you do.

Now set up 8 penalties:

String 1 Miss

String 1 Procedurals

String 2 Miss

String 2 Procedurals

String 3 Procedurals

String 3 Miss

String 4 Procedurals

String 4 Miss

The shooter shoots all 4, and are recorded. Simply zero out the string, and the procedural/miss as appropriate.

Now, I'm not claiming this is as good as what a dedicated string removal option would be, but it works well twice a week at his steel matches.

Ken N.

[jcwren]

Those sound like some interesting improvements, but I'd *really* like to see the bug list hit hard before any of that goes in on either iOS or Android.

There's just too many outstanding issues, some of which are critical (from my perspective) and need to be resolved before feature creep sets in.

I haven't seen any traffic on the bug list lately showing that any of the issues have been addressed lately, either.

--jc

[euxx]

Ken, how about recording actual rules/causes for penalties and DQs when scoring USPSA/IPSC matches?

It also would be great to get a more formal support for IPSC matches (e.g. match types, divisions, etc).

[Mark R]

Let's say you have a 4 string stage, throw out the worst.

Set the stage to have 4 strings, which PractiScore lets you do.

Now set up 8 penalties:

String 1 Miss

String 1 Procedurals

String 2 Miss

String 2 Procedurals

String 3 Procedurals

String 3 Miss

String 4 Procedurals

String 4 Miss

The shooter shoots all 4, and are recorded. Simply zero out the string, and the procedural/miss as appropriate.

Now, I'm not claiming this is as good as what a dedicated string removal option would be, but it works well twice a week at his steel matches.

Ken N.

Problem Ken is that you have to remember which string you had the misses/penalties on to remove those along with the string. Since there is only one miss box and 1 procedural box in the current time-plus version. What if on sting 2 I had 2 misses and it's the longest string? I'd have to zero out string 2 and remember that 2 of the misses pertained to sting 2...in order to remove the proper penalties.

Time plus scoring is a good workaround for steel challenge scoring (for the time being), but not ideal. For steel challenge stages you have to be able to enter strings per stage and have miss and procedurals entered PER sting. Then zero out or remove the longest sting during calculations.

[Ken N.]

Ken, how about recording actual rules/causes for penalties and DQs when scoring USPSA/IPSC matches?

It also would be great to get a more formal support for IPSC matches (e.g. match types, divisions, etc).

Okay - email with me and Devin direct and we can sort it out.

[bbbean]

Other ideas?

Is it possible to integrate a classifier lookup, or at least pass data to a link to CM Calc or Classifiercalc? We always have several shooters furiously calculating hit factors and looking up percentages at the classifier stage It'd be nice to tell them "your hit factor was 7.89 - that should be a 78%".

BB

[Xfactor]

Thanks for the update on works in progress, Ken.

On the top of my list would be flagging of re-entries. Any eta on that?

[Ken N.]

Classifier lookup... on the list. I'll explain a bit more on that in December after we have some tech meetings with USPSA.

Flagging Re-entries... Hmmm... it shows the shooter with Division in the name field if it is a re-entry. Let me know more what you are looking for here. support@practiscore.com

[CHA-LEE]

We are using the Nook's with PractiScore. We would like to request an enhancement to automate the "Random" ordering of the shooters when you switch from one stage to the next. Currently you have to manually go into the "Sorting" portion of the menu then click on the circle arrows to force the re-randomization of the shooters when going from one stage to the next. Automating the randomization of the shooters within the squad when switching from one stage to the next would be one less thing for people to worry about adjusting when scoring the match.