IPSC Rules Committee Removed Virginia Count Scoring?

[Saffer]

Well I'm not going to rush to judgement. During the Canadian winters I spend a lot of time setting up indoor stages too. I am concerned about the potential impact, but I understand what they are trying to achieve (simplification through the use of freestyle). So I will give it a chance. Who knows, without trying, progress can't be made.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Saffer

[Unregistered]

At least El Prez can still be shot at league nights here!

Saffer, our qualifiers (e.g. the one coming up at TSE) are level 3, is that correct?

[Jim Norman]

Hooray for USPSA past President Mike and the then current BOD. We DON'T have to play by IPSC rules unless we choose to. We, USPSA, have our own rules and I really and truly hope that Phil and the now current BOD keep that separation and increase it if by no other means than just not adopting stupidity that is spawned from IPSC.

As for El Prez and others we don't use IPSC rules (see above) so those classifiers are just fine here in USPSA land. Maybe we should start to market USPSA as a world wide organization?

Jim

[Skydiver]

Well I'm not going to rush to judgement. During the Canadian winters I spend a lot of time setting up indoor stages too. I am concerned about the potential impact, but I understand what they are tying to achieve (simplification through the use of freestyle). So I will give it a chance. Who knows, without trying progress can't be made.

I can see some things that make things easier for stage designers like the "no shortcuts" rule (2.2.1.5), "no shooting over walls" rule (10.2.11), fault lines as barriers or cover (2.2.12), and the simplification of treating of stationary targets whose A zones get covered up (9.9.3). And there was the aforementioned 1.1.5.1 that loosens the freestyle requirements for Level I and II.

[JFlowers]

I can see the thought process to some degree. Without a significant Classification system and pushing to be more freestyle, Virginia Count offers very little to IPSC. In the US we are used to it mainly because we have a significant Classification system. However, I don't see where keeping really hurt anything, as some people have posted, it comes in handy when running indoor leagues or stages in really confined spaces.

[Skydiver]

Hooray for USPSA past President Mike and the then current BOD. We DON'T have to play by IPSC rules unless we choose to. We, USPSA, have our own rules and I really and truly hope that Phil and the now current BOD keep that separation and increase it if by no other means than just not adopting stupidity that is spawned from IPSC.

As for El Prez and others we don't use IPSC rules (see above) so those classifiers are just fine here in USPSA land. Maybe we should start to market USPSA as a world wide organization?

Jim

Don't laugh. Last year, I heard of some Canadians who were considering switching over their club to follow USPSA rules rather the IPSC rules.

[sperman]

Sorry if I sounded like it was widely unknown ... I just had no idea. I haven't been on the GV in quite some time.

We are looking at splitting out and giving the IPSC info it's own place here on BE's forum.

I think that might be a good idea. The rulebooks seem to get further and further apart every year.

[wgnoyes]

Sorry if I sounded like it was widely unknown ... I just had no idea. I haven't been on the GV in quite some time.

We are looking at splitting out and giving the IPSC info it's own place here on BE's forum.

Will it be moderated with the same level of respect and fairness as the GV?

[Saffer]

At least El Prez can still be shot at league nights here!

Saffer, our qualifiers (e.g. the one coming up at TSE) are level 3, is that correct?

A league night is a training session, and has nothing to do with IPSC, or USPSA for that matter. We can do whatever we like. As for our qualifiers; these are basically club matches which count towards your Provincial ranking. They are either Level I or II matches.

Maybe we should start to market USPSA as a world wide organization?

Maybe USPSA should, but that doesn't negate having changes made that upset people. The recent changes to production division, within USPSA, has kicked up quite a stink itself. So no organisation is immune to criticism.

Last year, I heard of some Canadians who were considering switching over their club to follow USPSA rules rather the IPSC rules.

True, and often these are impulse reactions to rule changes, which I have indicated affects both organisations. The obvious benefit to Canada joining USPSA is that many of us shoot USPSA matches anyway.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Saffer

[Carlos]

Hooray for USPSA past President Mike and the then current BOD. We DON'T have to play by IPSC rules unless we choose to. We, USPSA, have our own rules and I really and truly hope that Phil and the now current BOD keep that separation and increase it if by no other means than just not adopting stupidity that is spawned from IPSC.

As for El Prez and others we don't use IPSC rules (see above) so those classifiers are just fine here in USPSA land. Maybe we should start to market USPSA as a world wide organization?

Jim

Don't laugh. Last year, I heard of some Canadians who were considering switching over their club to follow USPSA rules rather the IPSC rules.

I believe there is at least one non-U.S. club (perhaps in the Caribbean?) which is affiliated with USPSA by choice, rather than IPSC.

Personally, I believe there are inherent dangers in further fracturing of the competition community as a whole & I do not see IPSC going away anytime soon.

[Jim Norman]

Carlos,

I sort of agree with you. We need to stay strong together, but when IPSC's BOD walks away from all that is IPSC...?

Let's see, Airsoft, Where is the V in DVC in Airsoft

No Virginia Count

No Fixed Time

No Standards

Target orientation

Number of hits to be counted on NS targets

Can't mix two size poppers on a stage

Allowing countries that cannot hold a match to become voting members of the organization.

Allowing countries whose 'citizens' cannot own firearms to not only become voting members, but allowing them some sort of special status where in they get multiple votes!

Maybe, just maybe it it time to either clean house or move out.

I am happy to say that USPSA decided that since 'house cleaning' didn't look like a viable alternate, that USPSA moved out. Yes, we are still the US representative organization for IPSC, but there are very few IPSC rules matches run here, the vast majority are USPSA rules.

Again I would love to see our sport accepted world wide under our rules including 3-Gun, but where we have some regions that don't allow movement in a forward direction, movement while shooting, reloading ammo, collection of spent brass, possession of 'Military' calibers and other restrictions, I think that this is a pipe dream, Unfortunately by IPSC conceding and acquiescing to some of these arbitrary rules and forcing other more open societies to go along, we have weakened our stance, not strengthened it. We show that we can shoot without a caliber or a certain movement or even gunpowder and we show them that we can get along without firearms. This is bad for us all in the long run.

Several years back it was vehemently denied that the IPSC President ever said that if he could he'd take gunpowder out of IPSC, and just a few short years later, what to we have? IPSC Airsoft. Now I don't know if he actually said that, but at the time it was fairly widely reported.

IPSC started down a very slippery slope a long time back and they are only accelerating

[Gary Stevens]

I don't know how many members here visit the Global Village (besides Jim Norman!) but I just noticed today that the IPSC Rules Committee has released a new IPSC Rule Book effective Jan.1st, 2012 and among many other changes, they have completely killed Virginia Count, Fixed Time, and Standard Exercises. Any classifer that previously utilized such scoring (i.e. El Pres.) has since been removed from the IPSC website, and as such is no longer authorized.

Now, while I'm sure many folks here would prefer to never have to shoot Virginia Count stages again, I for one actually appreciated, if not enjoyed, the extra level of difficulty required to shoot those stages & classifiers. If nothing else it required a more deliberate mental attitude in regards to accuracy. And while this won't affect the vast majority of our American members, I know there are many of us here who DO actually shoot IPSC once in a while. I'm pretty sure we have many members who live near our Southern & Northern borders who cross over from time to time, to shoot IPSC matches.

Personally, I have only shot one IPSC Special Classifer match, as well as the inaugural U.S. IPSC Nationals held here in Ohio a few years ago. But that's not to say I wont ever shoot another .... I have often thought how fascinating it would be to travel to a foreign country, and participate in a match that I have never attended (and possibly never will again) for the shear thrill of doing something new and different, yet familiar and enjoyable at the same time.

I completely and totally DISAGREE with this action, almost as much as I disagreed with their decision to kill Modified Division, even though I was never much of a fan. Although on the flip side I see that they have instituted what they call a "Classic Division" (A.K.A. 1911 or Single-Stack) and after reading the division restrictions, it looks very much like what Gary Stevens started for us years ago, with a 3 year provisional status, and 8 rd. Major / 10 rd. Minor restrictions. So 3 Cheers to Gary for growing that division to an International Level.

Wow I have spread my seed, so to speak, across the pond. Who would have thunk it?

[George Jones]

Wow I have spread my seed, so to speak, across the pond. Who would have thunk it?

I believe there may be laws against that in several jurisdictions.

You may be hearing a knock on the door at any time.

[Flexmoney]

Yes, you...at least..have to pay tax on that.

Expect to see the revi'noors soon

How fitting (George Jones):

[Skydiver]

I don't know how many members here visit the Global Village (besides Jim Norman!) but I just noticed today that the IPSC Rules Committee has released a new IPSC Rule Book effective Jan.1st, 2012 and among many other changes, they have completely killed Virginia Count, Fixed Time, and Standard Exercises. Any classifer that previously utilized such scoring (i.e. El Pres.) has since been removed from the IPSC website, and as such is no longer authorized.

Now, while I'm sure many folks here would prefer to never have to shoot Virginia Count stages again, I for one actually appreciated, if not enjoyed, the extra level of difficulty required to shoot those stages & classifiers. If nothing else it required a more deliberate mental attitude in regards to accuracy. And while this won't affect the vast majority of our American members, I know there are many of us here who DO actually shoot IPSC once in a while. I'm pretty sure we have many members who live near our Southern & Northern borders who cross over from time to time, to shoot IPSC matches.

Personally, I have only shot one IPSC Special Classifer match, as well as the inaugural U.S. IPSC Nationals held here in Ohio a few years ago. But that's not to say I wont ever shoot another .... I have often thought how fascinating it would be to travel to a foreign country, and participate in a match that I have never attended (and possibly never will again) for the shear thrill of doing something new and different, yet familiar and enjoyable at the same time.

I completely and totally DISAGREE with this action, almost as much as I disagreed with their decision to kill Modified Division, even though I was never much of a fan. Although on the flip side I see that they have instituted what they call a "Classic Division" (A.K.A. 1911 or Single-Stack) and after reading the division restrictions, it looks very much like what Gary Stevens started for us years ago, with a 3 year provisional status, and 8 rd. Major / 10 rd. Minor restrictions. So 3 Cheers to Gary for growing that division to an International Level.

Wow I have spread my seed, so to speak, across the pond. Who would have thunk it?

Now, if only we can convince them that using 9 rounds into a magazine after declaring Major is a bump to Open, rather than a bump to Minor.

[The Antichrome]

If the Colonel were alive today, he would roll over in his grave.

I think the USPSA should completely dis-associate itself from IPSC.

OR, since IPSC was formed in the US, maybe we should take it back from those that run it now.

Edited January 7, 2012 by The Antichrome

[Flexmoney]

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• USPSA vs IPSC

[lynn jones]

If the Colonel were alive today, he would roll over in his grave.

I think the USPSA should completely dis-associate itself from IPSC.

OR, since IPSC was formed in the US, maybe we should take it back from the ridiculous airsoft weenies that run it now.

Why would he role over in his grave if he was alive? :-)

[Chuck Anderson]

If the Colonel were alive today, he would roll over in his grave.

I think the USPSA should completely dis-associate itself from IPSC.

OR, since IPSC was formed in the US, maybe we should take it back from the ridiculous airsoft weenies that run it now.

Why would he role over in his grave if he was alive? :-)

Well if he was alive he'd probably be doing a lot more than rolling. More like kicking, screaming and clawing. I'm betting a lot of, "let me out of this grave!!!"

[West Texas Granny]

If the Colonel were alive today, he would roll over in his grave.

I think the USPSA should completely dis-associate itself from IPSC.

OR, since IPSC was formed in the US, maybe we should take it back from the ridiculous airsoft weenies that run it now.

Why would he role over in his grave if he was alive? :-)

A very interesting observation which brings up the following questions. How will you determine if he is alive in his grave? How will you determine if he is rolling over in said grave? Does this rolling only pertain to the body or is the casket turning in sync with the body? Why is a live person in a grave?

[Schutzenmeister]

Now, if only we can convince them that using 9 rounds into a magazine after declaring Major is a bump to Open, rather than a bump to Minor.

Why should we convince them? That's not the way we deal with our similar rule in Single Stack, is it.

[Skydiver]

Now, if only we can convince them that using 9 rounds into a magazine after declaring Major is a bump to Open, rather than a bump to Minor.

Why should we convince them? That's not the way we deal with our similar rule in Single Stack, is it.

I though that this thread concluded that for USPSA it's a bump to Open, while for IPSC it was simply a bump to minor:

http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1568418

Edited January 9, 2012 by Skydiver

[Duke Nukem]

I dont like Virgina count courses. I wouldn't care if USPSA got rid of them too.

You can still shoot an El Prez and fire a makeup shot and you havent lost the original intent of the drill.

If I see misses and I still have rounds in my mag I want to shoot some more. In the end the extra time will still separate the competitors.

[aztecdriver]

I dont like Virgina count courses. I wouldn't care if USPSA got rid of them too.

You can still shoot an El Prez and fire a makeup shot and you havent lost the original intent of the drill.

If I see misses and I still have rounds in my mag I want to shoot some more. In the end the extra time will still separate the competitors.

Hey, Duke... I think that, though, is the point of VA count. It's to test the accuracy and speed and not the capacity of the equipment - or at least, allow the stage to be built to TEST it. VA count challenges me, I want it around.

[Skydiver]

I dont like Virgina count courses. I wouldn't care if USPSA got rid of them too.

You can still shoot an El Prez and fire a makeup shot and you havent lost the original intent of the drill.

If I see misses and I still have rounds in my mag I want to shoot some more. In the end the extra time will still separate the competitors.

That's not quite true. In VC, there is a penalty for that extra shot... and the extra hit as well if the extra shot. The damage done by the -10 (or -20) is much bigger in a 60 point stage versus the extra half second to second it takes to fire a make up shot.