Why a 22 rimfire division is needed in USPSA

[Schutzenmeister]

[...] I have nothing against airsoft, but it would be just silly to have it recognized by the USPSA.

As I said before ... It already is! USPSA recognizes the right of any USPSA club to run a match by IPSC rules. IPSC HAS AirSoft. Ergo, USPSA recgonizes it. If you like it, organize a match and shoot it. If you don't, don't. But please, do not pretend USPSA does not recognize it.

Let's be careful with terms here.

-- IPSC recognizes airsoft within its rulebook

-- USPSA does *not* recognize airsoft within its rulebook.

A USPSA-affiliated club can run IPSC matches (according to IPSC rules) by virtue of the fact that USPSA is the affliated region of IPSC within the US. But... USPSA does not "recognize" airsoft. USPSA matches are required to be run according to USPSA rules, and there are no mentions of airsoft in the USPSA rulebook.

[...]

I know it's splitting hairs, but I beg to differ. Your are correct, USPSA does not have a rulebook supporting AriSoft. USPSA does, however, allow clubs to run IPSC rules matches ... per agreement with IPSC. In fact, one can set their match up for IPSC rules under EZWinScore ... Just select it instead of USPSA. Therefore, by default, USPSA "recognizes" AirSoft every bit as much as it recgonizes (for example) a "Glocks Only Championship" ... an event which in and of itself cannot be sanctioned strictly under USPSA rules. (Principle #3.) (Idaho runs such a match every year. It's listed on the USPSA major match listing as "Recognized.")

I doubt we shall ever see it, as there is no interest in it. However, there is no technical reason why someone could not plan, organize, receive sanction from USPSA and IPSC, then run a USA IPSC AirSoft National (Level III) Championship match. That would clearly be "recognized" - even "sanctioned" - by USPSA. T'ain't never gonna happen 'cause there's ZERO interest in it. But as I said, there's no TECHNICAL reason it could not.

[smokshwn]

One thing keeps coming to mind as I read this thread "If they have no bread, let them eat cake". I don't wish to be disrespectful to grand masters and those that have worked so hard to make this sport what it is today. So let's agree to disagree on this. See y'all at the range. Ray

With Steel Challenge, Ruger Rimfire, local club run .22 matches etc etc. Please explain this lack of bread you speak about.

If we look simply at your financial arguement, the crux being that .22 ammunition is more economical to shoot week to week, it does not hold water. Let's assume that the budget shooter you speak of has a .22 pistol that would be suitable for a match. I would doubt they have the 6-8 magazines it would take to negotiate a long field course. I would further posit they do not have a suitable holster nor magpouches for the aforementioned mags. So right off the bat you have now saddled Mr. Budget shooter with a significant expense. This seems to be contradictory to your stated purpose of economic savings.

This is only the first objective argument against what you propose, speaking nothing of the already mentioned administrative, regulatory, and pragmatic hurdles such a change would involve. Instead of dismissing the arguments as simply a difference of opinion, why not recognize that .22 is a poor fit with USPSA and pursue other avenues of rimfire competition.

Edited December 12, 2011 by smokshwn

[Schutzenmeister]

[...] We actually have multiple disciplines we administer, USPSA, IPSC (and yes Mike, they are different) [...]

Chuck

Of late, even I have conceded that although the two are still more similar than different, they are in fact different ... And the gap is growing, I'm sorry to say. The new IPSC 2012 Rules take the international community still further in one direction and, I suspect, whatever the next "year" varient of our rules will take us further in the other direction.

At some point in time, if this trend continues, I strongly suspect the two organizations will formally split and dissolve all ties with each other. I do not consider this a good thing, as I believe each has strengths. Nevertheless, I will be surprised if the "marriage" lasts another 10 years. JMHO.

[Flexmoney]

Ray,

Any club that can run USPSA (or IDPA) likely has ALL it needs to run a Steel Challenge match...which meets most every desire that has been put forth in this thread.

- Just take 5 poppers and turn them around and set them so that they don't fall when hit. That makes a course of fire.

- Heck, a smaller venue only needs one bay (depending on the number of shooters). If you just have 10 shooters, run the course of fire for everybody, then move the steel around and run another course.

- It is 22 friendly. Revolver friendly. Gear friendly...on and on.

We should all be running Steel Challenge matches. (hint: they don't have to look like the World match)

[bgary]

Therefore, by default, USPSA "recognizes" AirSoft every bit as much as it recgonizes (for example) a "Glocks Only Championship" ... an event which in and of itself cannot be sanctioned strictly under USPSA rules.

Not true (and it isn't splitting hairs... it is a big timber).

The notion of a 'recognized' match, as you (an RM) well know, is to be able to allow a club to 'set aside' some ancillary aspect of the USPSA rules in order to provide some flexibility for a specific event. In the example you cite, a "glocks only" match is a valid USPSA match in every way *except* for the fact that it is not open to all types of guns. And gaining 'recognized' status requires approval of the USPSA office.

The difference is that those Glocks are *already* USPSA-legal guns; the USPSA rules are not expanding to allow some other form of gun into the match, they are allowing the "restriction" of USPSA rules to a narrower set than normal. Attempting to bring in rimfire or airsoft under that same construct would be a *huge* shift, since neither of those are valid/compliant firearms under the rules. IMHO, it would never be able to gain the required approval for 'recognized' status.

The net of it, for me, is that a glocks-only match still respects "DVC"; a rimfire or airsoft match would not.

[motosapiens]

This has been beat to death already but I will say it anyways. Do we really want everyone that owns a gun to shoot USPSA with us? My vote is no. The people that are involved in the sport now are some of the best people I have ever known and I for one would like to keep it that way.

I think rimfire shooters are jerks.

Seriously, my comments as a new shooter who hasn't even done a uspsa match yet (but wants to this winter) is that steel challenge is an excellent existing venue for rimfires, and a better place than idpa/uspsa for new shooters to get comfortable with shooting sports and range safety and so on. I shot a bunch of them over the summer, some with rimfire and some with center-fire, and it really improved my idpa shooting.

On the original post, If steel challenge isn't enough, and you really want something more action and movement oriented, then I suggest rather than trying to get someone else to do it, just do it yourself at your local club as a proof of concept. You'll have to decide whether you want it oriented towards new shooters, or just towards cheapskates. If it's the former, then you may want to reload off-the-clock, start from low-ready, and otherwise simplify it a bit for new or younger shooters to help keep everyone safe and make it friendlier for novices.

If there was a local club putting on a rimfire action shooting match, I would probably go out and try a few.

Edited December 12, 2011 by motosapiens

[Schutzenmeister]

Therefore, by default, USPSA "recognizes" AirSoft every bit as much as it recgonizes (for example) a "Glocks Only Championship" ... an event which in and of itself cannot be sanctioned strictly under USPSA rules.

Not true (and it isn't splitting hairs... it is a big timber).

The notion of a 'recognized' match, as you (an RM) well know, is to be able to allow a club to 'set aside' some ancillary aspect of the USPSA rules in order to provide some flexibility for a specific event. In the example you cite, a "glocks only" match is a valid USPSA match in every way *except* for the fact that it is not open to all types of guns. And gaining 'recognized' status requires approval of the USPSA office.

The difference is that those Glocks are *already* USPSA-legal guns; the USPSA rules are not expanding to allow some other form of gun into the match, they are allowing the "restriction" of USPSA rules to a narrower set than normal. Attempting to bring in rimfire or airsoft under that same construct would be a *huge* shift, since neither of those are valid/compliant firearms under the rules. IMHO, it would never be able to gain the required approval for 'recognized' status.

The net of it, for me, is that a glocks-only match still respects "DVC"; a rimfire or airsoft match would not.

OK ... We seem not to agree on the definition of the word "recognized." That's OK ...

However, consider:

The "North American Nok Down Steel Championship" (last weekend) was "recognized" by USPSA ... It does not follow USPSA scoring rules. It is "time plus" scoring.

The "Monster Match" (in Florida, I think) WAY exceeds the number of rounds allowed from a given position and/or on a given stage. (A couple of other matches fall into this category, too.)

I would say that Steel Challenge is very much "recognized" by USPSA ... Though they do allow .22's and the rules are most DEFINITELY NOT covered by DVC!

In my hypothetical, sanctioning for a theoretical "USA IPSC AirSoft Nationals" would REQUIRE USPSA review and approval per Appendix A1 of IPSC rules and the IPSC approval process for Level III matches.

Nevertheless, I think we both agree - It ain't NEVER gonna happen! Mostly because there's ZERO interest.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Schutzenmeister

[bgary]

The "North American Nok Down Steel Championship" (last weekend) was "recognized" by USPSA ... It does not follow USPSA scoring rules. It is "time plus" scoring.

*perfect* example of a "recognized" match. full-power handguns, uses USPSA safety rules, but granted "recognized" status in order to affiliate with USPSA even though not using USPSA scoring (note that a whole lot of local/club-level multigun matches did the same thing, before USPSA approved time-plus for multigun)

The "Monster Match" (in Florida, I think) WAY exceeds the number of rounds allowed from a given position and/or on a given stage. (A couple of other matches fall into this category, too.)

Another perfect example. Again, full-power handguns, safety rules, just granted "recognized" status in order to affiliate with USPSA even though not in compliance with round-count limits.

I would say that Steel Challenge is very much "recognized" by USPSA ... Though they do allow .22's and the rules are most DEFINITELY NOT covered by DVC!

BZZZZT!!!! (and you were doing so well ) Steel Challenge matches have never been recognize by USPSA. In large part because there is no recognition of "power". They are, however, fully recognized by SCSA, which is under the "USPSA umbrella".

And that's the point of the discussion. USPSA-the-org has several different types of competition, which each have their own foundational tenets and rules. USPSA-the-type-of-practical-shooting has always been about accuracy, speed and POWER. There's no way to fit rimfire into that without diluting the style of shooting. But there are all kinds of ways to bring rimfire in under the umbrella of USPSA-the-org (Steel Challenge is one, there are others).

In my hypothetical, sanctioning for a theoretical "USA IPSC AirSoft Nationals" would REQUIRE USPSA review and approval per Appendix A1 of IPSC rules and the IPSC approval process for Level III matches.

That's mixing apples and oranges. Yes, running an airsoft match under IPSC rules in the US requires sanction from USPSA-the-org. But that does not mean that USPSA recognizes airsoft. It means that USPSA-the-org has reviewed the match, and agrees that it will be run under IPSC rules. To make that connection is like saying that your local DMV has "approved" your driver's license, and therefore you can drive a big-rig on the freeway. Yes, your driver's license allows you to drive on the freeway, but under a specific set of rules and conditions. It doesn't give you carte-blanche approval to do anything you want on the freeway.

Nevertheless, I think we both agree - It ain't NEVER gonna happen! Mostly because there's ZERO interest.

Perhaps surprisingly, that's where I most DISagree. I think there is tremendous potential for organizing rimfire competition. Case in point, the local "tac-rifle" (non-USPSA) carbine matches have a division for rimfire (ARs running .22LR conversions). It's cheap, it's fun and it is growing. No question there is interest. It just doesn't belong in the same match as a USPSA-rules "rifle match", where POWER matters.

[Chuck Anderson]

I think part of the confusion stems from the way we play the name game with USPSA. USPSA is the US representative of IPSC. USPSA is also a different sport from IPSC. We have a separate rule book, USPSA discipline matches don't count as far as IPSC is concerned. We use the term USPSA for two different purposes. One as the umbrella org and one as a specific Discipline. The umbrella org can recognize different disciplines, such as Steel Challenge without running afoul of the founding principles because it doesn't affect USPSA the discipline. USPSA the org would be the entity that would approve of and run IPSC matches, including IPSC Airsoft if it came to that. USPSA the discipline would not.

USPSA the Org could certainly entertain a .22 Rimfire Discipline. USPSA the discipline could not. Is everyone confused now? Or is it just me?

[Schutzenmeister]

Nevertheless, I think we both agree - It ain't NEVER gonna happen! Mostly because there's ZERO interest.

Perhaps surprisingly, that's where I most DISagree. I think there is tremendous potential for organizing rimfire competition. Case in point, the local "tac-rifle" (non-USPSA) carbine matches have a division for rimfire (ARs running .22LR conversions). It's cheap, it's fun and it is growing. No question there is interest. It just doesn't belong in the same match as a USPSA-rules "rifle match", where POWER matters.

Actually, I was referring to AirSoft in the above quote, not .22LR. Better?

I think part of the confusion stems from the way we play the name game with USPSA. USPSA is the US representative of IPSC. USPSA is also a different sport from IPSC. We have a separate rule book, USPSA discipline matches don't count as far as IPSC is concerned. We use the term USPSA for two different purposes. One as the umbrella org and one as a specific Discipline. The umbrella org can recognize different disciplines, such as Steel Challenge without running afoul of the founding principles because it doesn't affect USPSA the discipline. USPSA the org would be the entity that would approve of and run IPSC matches, including IPSC Airsoft if it came to that. USPSA the discipline would not.

USPSA the Org could certainly entertain a .22 Rimfire Discipline. USPSA the discipline could not. Is everyone confused now? Or is it just me?

Chuck ... I gotta admit. That's clearer than the Mississippi during spring run-off! Really - It sort of makes sense.

[alpha-charlie]

Ray,

Any club that can run USPSA (or IDPA) likely has ALL it needs to run a Steel Challenge match...which meets most every desire that has been put forth in this thread.

- Just take 5 poppers and turn them around and set them so that they don't fall when hit. That makes a course of fire.

- Heck, a smaller venue only needs one bay (depending on the number of shooters). If you just have 10 shooters, run the course of fire for everybody, then move the steel around and run another course.

- It is 22 friendly. Revolver friendly. Gear friendly...on and on.

We should all be running Steel Challenge matches. (hint: they don't have to look like the World match)

My thoughts exactly. If EVERY club that runs a USPSA match also ran a Steel Challenge match on a regular basis, would we even be having this conversation??? (I know this isn't possible due to some clubs not allowing steel) Steel challenge is there for this reason already. It's a great way to get newer shooters out on the range in a competitive environment. Showing up to a USPSA match, whether you're shooting a .22 or not will still be very intimidating. There's a ton of things going on during a stage to distract shooters from their shooting. Solution: Steel matches. Safer for new shooters (no draws, running, reloads, etc)and hopefully plants the competitive "bug" in them so that when they're comfortable in how matches are run they can move up to USPSA/IDPA.

[leadslinger275]

I could not disagree more. If you want to shoot rimfire competitively go shoot a steel's match (which I enjoy doing). USPSA would cease to be what it is without standing by the "DVC" philosophy... nuff said.

[JakeMartens]

I could not disagree more. If you want to shoot rimfire competitively go shoot a steel's match (which I enjoy doing). USPSA would cease to be what it is without standing by the "DVC" philosophy... nuff said.

Amen.....

please close your hymnals

move on

how about how can USPSA promote WHAT WE HAVE NOW and bring our operations more up to date???

[Chills1994]

^^^ as in, why aren't there USPSA.org commercials running while the 3gun nation show is on?

I know advertising is expensive, so maybe just one whole commercial during the entire show.

[Ray_Z]

CRAP!! I can't stay out of this. I've had folks that were new shooters that came to the line and on signal drew their gun, pointed it down range, turned their head, closed their eyes, and began putting rounds down range. Before I could grab the gun they had put half a dozen rounds in the berm. Beginner?, yes. Wanted to shoot the sport?, yes. Came back to shoot another day? no. If they were shooting a 22 would they been able to progress to a level where they could compete in a center fire division? yes. If they were shooting in speed steel or the Ruger matches are they shooting at steel only? yes. Can they see their hits? I can't. Could they see what they did if they were shooting on paper? yes. Should they go away until they can shoot center fire? HUMM!! bread or cake.

[Flexmoney]

Hi Ray,

I would say...nobody needs to see their hits. They need to see their sights. If they see their sights, then the hits will be where the sights said they were.

Anybody that is turning their head away, closing their eyes and shooting the gun...well, they aren't ready. They will scare off the folks that are already known/returning participants .

I love shooting 22's. I probably shot more rounds of 22's in matches this year than I shot center fire. Many that come out to shoot 22's (for me, Steel Challenge, Bowling Pins, and Bullseye)...they aren't ready to be running around and reloading. They just aren't. (I am scared away from one of the 22 Bullseye matches that I used to shoot.)

I really don't want those people (like the eyes closed head turners you mentioned) to be running around. They are better off at a stand still match. They will get adjust sooner/better. And, they will probably have a better time doing so.

[MarkCO]

Hi Ray,

I would say...nobody needs to see their hits. They need to see their sights. If they see their sights, then the hits will be where the sights said they were.

Anybody that is turning their head away, closing their eyes and shooting the gun...well, they aren't ready. They will scare off the folks that are already known/returning participants .

I love shooting 22's. I probably shot more rounds of 22's in matches this year than I shot center fire. Many that come out to shoot 22's (for me, Steel Challenge, Bowling Pins, and Bullseye)...they aren't ready to be running around and reloading. They just aren't. (I am scared away from one of the 22 Bullseye matches that I used to shoot.)

I really don't want those people (like the eyes closed head turners you mentioned) to be running around. They are better off at a stand still match. They will get adjust sooner/better. And, they will probably have a better time doing so.

Great answer, you maybe should run for a USPSA office.

[diehli]

Hi Ray,

I would say...nobody needs to see their hits. They need to see their sights. If they see their sights, then the hits will be where the sights said they were.

Anybody that is turning their head away, closing their eyes and shooting the gun...well, they aren't ready. They will scare off the folks that are already known/returning participants .

I love shooting 22's. I probably shot more rounds of 22's in matches this year than I shot center fire. Many that come out to shoot 22's (for me, Steel Challenge, Bowling Pins, and Bullseye)...they aren't ready to be running around and reloading. They just aren't. (I am scared away from one of the 22 Bullseye matches that I used to shoot.)

I really don't want those people (like the eyes closed head turners you mentioned) to be running around. They are better off at a stand still match. They will get adjust sooner/better. And, they will probably have a better time doing so.

Great answer,

Absolutely.

you maybe should run for a USPSA office.

Yeah, like anyone would vote for that chucklehead.

[TGO]

While I'm sure this is going to anger some, I see no reason to introduce a rimfire division. One of the things that makes our sport relevant is that we MANDATE full power (or sorta, full power) large caliber handguns. It is the driving force, our foundation. Take that away and you have lost the whole point. For our sport, 22's are really training tools. The whole point is we utilizing large caliber handguns for practical purposes that a rimfire is simply not suitable for due to it's fundamental lack of power.

Now, having said that, is there a place for a segment of our sport to use the advantages of the rimfire, (low cost both ammo and guns, light recoil and noise) ? You bet. I use them constantly in my training now, both for myself and others. In pistol and rifle. But I can't imagine why we would want to incorporate them into the matches we now run? The problems they would cause would require events to be designed so differently that what you now call Practical Pistol would be unrecognizable. It is supposed to be the development, training and testing of techniques and equipment that are suitable for PRACTICAL USE. Now I'm sure that others will have a different view, but I feel we have already reduced the VIS part of the equation enough. Factory rounds are now too hot to use in a match because they kick too much. Now we add .22? I feel it would really hurt the sport!

Our club in Mesa Az. The Rio Salado Sportsman's Club, is mecca for practical shooting and we have an excellent .22 match run every month that caters to the new and inexperienced shooters. It is fantastic. It is run to get the newbie some experience with match pressure and the process of competing. This is the natural place for the rimfire and I recommend it to everyone who wants to get into this sport. But due to more than just the physical reasons of running a match like steel targets and scoring, it is the complete lack of respect for the need to learn to shoot powerful guns that has me interested in this issue.

I'm not mad at anyone, but at some point we need to recognize that we have a division for everyone who wants to shoot this sport. I do not need or even want to have yet another just to make a home for a unsuitable category of guns. I don't want to watch snails race, or ostrich flying contests or who can hold their breath the longest either. I want to shoot large caliber service type pistols in courses of fire that reflect the practical use of such guns.

BTW, I love .22's! Have lots of them and use them all the time, just do not want to shoot practical pistol with them.. Maybe what would be needed is an organized type of training in our sport. I would use the rimfire for that!!

Sorry about the long winded speech, I'll shut up now. Probably Chuck A's fault, somehow.....

Rob

level That the swhat it is is it's re

[Chuck Anderson]

Dang Rob, you've posted more in the last two weeks than you have in the last two years. You planning to run for Area 2 Director or something?

[Jim Norman]

I have to agree with TGO on his post 100%. We have at our club a .22 action group, they run a match 9 months of the year using USPSA rules with regard to safety and all, nut obviously a full disregard for PF. They have actually gone out and built .22 compatible steel targets! Many of our regular shooters also shoot this match for practice and many new shooters, younger shooters and less physically inclined shooters also shoot this match. It is a lot of fun, but it is NOT USPSA/Practical Shooting!

[JakeMartens]

I don't want to watch snails race, or ostrich flying contests or who can hold their breath the longest either. I want to shoot large caliber service type pistols in courses of fire that reflect the practical use of such guns.

TGO has been doing some preaching "up'n herr"

Tell like it is......testify!!

100% Right on

[fayetteflash]

Good discussion... force-fitting any sport/organization into something it was never designed to accommodate is a very slippery slope. I'm all for the notion of creating or embracing new disciplines of competition that include rimfire. I really love my .22's and often shoot Steel Challenge matches with rimfire only and let the centerfires cool off for a weekend. They make fantastic training tools and are a great fit for other disciplines. Kudos to the clubs that run rimfire matches and don't try to force-fit them into USPSA matches or even worse call them a USPSA match. Keep the sport pure and grow it from the inside. Nothing is stopping anyone from creating a rimfire match that follows a set of defined rules. You don't have to have a large umbrella organization to make that work and make that great. Once your local match is rocking and rolling and attracting new shooters and educating them on firearm safety and marksmanship, it will grow. Bottom line, stop the talk and start the action. If you know someone that wants to try it out, take the time and get them on the range. Let them borrow your guns and invest some time in teaching them. Then, they can make their own decision about what discipline will fit their passions and budget.

[Nik Habicht]

Dang Rob, you've posted more in the last two weeks than you have in the last two years. You planning to run for Area 2 Director or something?

Maybe he'll move to Washington......

Or this is the beginning of his run for USPSA President in 2015.....

[smokshwn]

Who is this TGO guy anyway.....he comes in here with almost zero post count, throws down all these crazy ideas and you guys worship him!