Why a 22 rimfire division is needed in USPSA

[mike cyrwus]

Clubs really ought to be running Steel Challenge.

bingo.

[bbbean]

And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Even if there were no other problems with ,22s in USPSA, this would kill it. You might as well ask NASCAR to add a bicycle division, and ask them to run bike races on the same track at the same time as the primary race. I'm all for people shooting .22, but they should do it in matches designed and set up for rimfire. Steel Challenge comes to mind.

Edited December 11, 2011 by bbbean

[The Antichrome]

Imagine, if the USPSA made rimfire a Division...the arms race that would occur.

Buckmarks and Rugers would need magwells (and basepads to fit). Most would want light barrels too.

But we would all be building gamer guns from our 2011's to be run with conversions. This would really be the only truly competitive solution. Large conversion mags with extended basepads, huge magwells, etc. That way, we'd already have holsters and mag pouches.

Dont forget 'Open rimfire' for the optics guys. Then you need comps...can I use .22mag to get more gas for my comp?

Speaking of .22mag, can I use a PMR-30 with its 30 round mags?

The guy that wanted to shoot rimfire for the economics of it, is now left behind...unless we also have a rimfire production division.

And we've left out the guys who shoot a 617.

Before you know it, there are 6 different rimfire divisions...

[diehli]

.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Singlestack
Edited by Moderator to remove antagonistic picture

[Ray_Z]

If it isn't broke? Don't fix it. USPSA is what it is and quite simply I like it that way.

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

Hi Ray,

The fact that "some" people still think you have to have a 2500 dollar gun to shoot USPSA, despite Production Division, Sinle Stack Division, L-10 Division and Revolver Division falls into the area of "you just can't fix stupid". My opinion only, your mileage may vary.

Gary

I agree with you Gary. You can't fix stupid. But how about trying to fix the folks that can't afford 150 rounds of center fire ammo? "If they have no bread let them eat cake"

Antichrome I don't suggest an equipment race. My suggestion was to run a rim fire division with the same parameters as production. 10 rounds, stock guns, no mag wells, comps, or gee haw whimmy diddles.

[Chuck Anderson]

If it isn't broke? Don't fix it. USPSA is what it is and quite simply I like it that way.

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

Hi Ray,

The fact that "some" people still think you have to have a 2500 dollar gun to shoot USPSA, despite Production Division, Sinle Stack Division, L-10 Division and Revolver Division falls into the area of "you just can't fix stupid". My opinion only, your mileage may vary.

Gary

I agree with you Gary. You can't fix stupid. But how about trying to fix the folks that can't afford 150 rounds of center fire ammo? "If they have no bread let them eat cake"

Antichrome I don't suggest an equipment race. My suggestion was to run a rim fire division with the same parameters as production. 10 rounds, stock guns, no mag wells, comps, or gee haw whimmy diddles.

USPSA does have a .22 Division. It's just under Steel Challenge. For those that can't afford 150 rounds of centerfire ammo, I suggest that. Trying to water down the stages so they can be shot with .22's for the remaining membership is not a valid option. Aside from the logistics of trying to work out all the issues .22's have with courses designed for real USPSA shooters, there is the simple fact that it goes against the founding principles of the sport. Principles that many people still believe in. Granted we may gain a few shooters who want to shoot their .22's because they can save a few bucks shooting Federal bulk pack instead of 9mm. But I know we'd also lose some that would be completely disgusted that a sport designed around the defensive use of handguns degenerated to the point people were shooting the courses with .22's.

[ong45]

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

One day someone will complain that they cannot afford the 3$ it takes to shoot rimfire division, thus the slippery slope towards airsoft starts

[Cy Soto]

...thus the slippery slope towards airsoft starts.

Funny that you would say that... I, for one, would love to see an AIPSC league right here in the US. By the same token, I honestly believe that the OP makes some great points in favor of a .22LR Division in USPSA but sadly, there is a lot of resistance by the shooting community to any sort of change.

[MarkCO]

With all due respect, the resistance is not to change but to undermining the very principles on which this sport was founded!

[The Antichrome]

...thus the slippery slope towards airsoft starts.

Funny that you would say that... I, for one, would love to see an AIPSC league right here in the US. By the same token, I honestly believe that the OP makes some great points in favor of a .22LR Division in USPSA but sadly, there is a lot of resistance by the shooting community to any sort of change.

Of course Airsoft only exists in IPSC because a certain somebody is in the airsoft business.

It adds nothing to the shooting sports or to the integrity of IPSC. Its not a gateway for IPSC. I have nothing against airsoft, but it would be just silly to have it recognized by the USPSA.

[uzi]

Of course Airsoft only exists in IPSC because a certain somebody is in the airsoft business.

hello, who is certain some-body??

[The Antichrome]

Antichrome I don't suggest an equipment race. My suggestion was to run a rim fire division with the same parameters as production. 10 rounds, stock guns, no mag wells, comps, or gee haw whimmy diddles.

I understand that, but the race would begin immediately.

Guys would want to shoot their Limited guns and SS guns with a conversion.

The Buckmark guys would all have TacSol barrels...The Ruger guys would all have TacSol uppers. You know how those Mod.41 guys are...and the guys running 617's, dont get me started.

Many would want to shoot with an Optic, and they do it in Steel Challenge, soooo...

The gee haw whimmy diddle company is a major sponsor;-)

Steel Challenge is successful and .22's are a major component. The Ruger Rimfire Challenge is successful and rapidly growing. Local initiative Action Rimfire matches can be fantastic. Every AR15 company out there has a .22 version or conversion. Rimfire may very well be the key to the future of shooting sports in America. But it just doest need to be a Division in the USPSA.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...] I have nothing against airsoft, but it would be just silly to have it recognized by the USPSA.

As I said before ... It already is! USPSA recognizes the right of any USPSA club to run a match by IPSC rules. IPSC HAS AirSoft. Ergo, USPSA recgonizes it. If you like it, organize a match and shoot it. If you don't, don't. But please, do not pretend USPSA does not recognize it.

[smokshwn]

...thus the slippery slope towards airsoft starts.

Funny that you would say that... I, for one, would love to see an AIPSC league right here in the US. By the same token, I honestly believe that the OP makes some great points in favor of a .22LR Division in USPSA but sadly, there is a lot of resistance by the shooting community to any sort of change.

I will jump on Mark's bandwagon and agree that I am grateful for those who are willing to defend the principles of the sport in the face of those who constantly want to undermine it. The underminer's sing the song of change, however it is generally just a call for accomadation of their personal desires.

The shooting community enjoys thousands of flavors. There is ample opportunity to either sample other flavors or develop your own. But please leave the flavor of USPSA alone. It was founded on an unflinching, objective assessment of the martial application of firearms while upholding the standard of DVC. It was never meant to appeal to every shooter. Quite the contrary it was meant to appeal to those very few who wanted to pursue the absolute pinnacle of performance, and withstand it's constant assessment of their strengths and weaknesses.

I would love to see the sport grow in it's appeal and popularity. However I would like to see it grow because a larger percentage of people desired to partake of its fundamental attributes, rather than be drawn by a watered down, compromised version that accommodates everyone's desires.

Edited December 12, 2011 by smokshwn

[JakeMartens]

...thus the slippery slope towards airsoft starts.

Funny that you would say that... I, for one, would love to see an AIPSC league right here in the US. By the same token, I honestly believe that the OP makes some great points in favor of a .22LR Division in USPSA but sadly, there is a lot of resistance by the shooting community to any sort of change.

I will jump on Mark's bandwagon and agree that I am grateful for those who are willing to defend the principles of the sport in the face of those who constantly want to undermine it. The underminer's sing the song of change, however it is generally just a call for accomadation of their personal desires.

The shooting community enjoys thousands of flavors. There is ample opportunity to either sample other flavors or develop your own. But please leave the flavor of USPSA alone. It was founded on an unflinching, objective assessment of the martial application of firearms while upholding the standard of DVC. It was never meant to appeal to every shooter. Quite the contrary it was meant to appeal to those very few who wanted to pursue the absolute pinnacle of performance, and withstand it's constant assessment of their strengths and weaknesses.

I would love to see the sport grow in it's appeal and popularity. However I would like to see it grow because a larger percentage of people desired to partake of its fundamental attributes, rather than be drawn by a watered down, compromised version that accommodates everyone's desires.

Amen

So instead of working against or wanting to change what we got let's focus on promoting and advertising it. Let's work on updating the operations and marketing and bring it into the social media that we have now, take advantage of the popularity of current mainstream media that is promoting shooting sports now

[ziebart]

22's belong in steel challenge. 9mm is not that expensive, here are some of the reasons my friends don't like going to it often. They are all in their 20's.

1. Too early in the morning

2. no ammo/money, just a priority issue many spent more than a days worth of ammo at the bars

3. takes to long to get the scores out

4. takes 4+ hours to shoot <150 rounds, most of the time is standing around and taping targets

A club could change some things but starting later isn't really an option in the Vegas summer, and in the winter it would probably alienate the older shooters that make up the bulk of the club. We get the scores out in less than a week but it would really improve the sport aspect if there were live scoring throughout the match like golf. That way you could BS with the guys over lunch after a match.

None of my friends have 22 pistols, I don't think they would want to spend 300+ dollars on another gun that is just a "pea shooter", None of the other problems would be fixed by 22's. It is just the nature of competition. An additional factor might be a lot of shooters like to think they are quite good but don't want to be proven wrong.

[Joe4d]

I dont think this is the avenue for new shooters. There are only a handful of 22's on the market that even work. And how many get sold ? People dont buy 22's they buy service and compact 9's 40's and 45's thats what the gun market is and thats what our pool of potential new shooters have at home. Walk into any gun store and look what is on the shelf. It aint 22's. Youd be better off creating a "Compact" division with low weights, and sub 4" barrel requirements. That would be the place to pull new shooters. Of course once they see how hard mouse guns are to shoot they will be buying full size gear.

[JKSNIPER]

I think Ziebart hit on a factor as to why the sport does not grow the way people think it should.

" A lot of shooters like to think they are quite good but don't want to be proven wrong."

I know many good shots who NEVER go to ANY type of competition.....and I have tried to get them to come out to just one match.

One guy I got to attend a LE/Mil sniper match did so poorly on his first match he has NEVER returned to ANY competition period.

And that match was restricted to LEO and Mil guys ONLY. He didn't do well at all and told the guy who was partnered with him that he was embarrassed at how poorly he did and never returned to ANY type of competition.

Which is a shame because he was such a gun enthusiast (nut).

Now he's the head sniper instructor for that org....go figure.

Money and ego are the biggest killers to growth in the shooting sports.

[Ray_Z]

If it isn't broke? Don't fix it. USPSA is what it is and quite simply I like it that way.

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

Hi Ray,

The fact that "some" people still think you have to have a 2500 dollar gun to shoot USPSA, despite Production Division, Sinle Stack Division, L-10 Division and Revolver Division falls into the area of "you just can't fix stupid". My opinion only, your mileage may vary.

Gary

I agree with you Gary. You can't fix stupid. But how about trying to fix the folks that can't afford 150 rounds of center fire ammo? "If they have no bread let them eat cake"

Antichrome I don't suggest an equipment race. My suggestion was to run a rim fire division with the same parameters as production. 10 rounds, stock guns, no mag wells, comps, or gee haw whimmy diddles.

USPSA does have a .22 Division. It's just under Steel Challenge. For those that can't afford 150 rounds of centerfire ammo, I suggest that. Trying to water down the stages so they can be shot with .22's for the remaining membership is not a valid option. Aside from the logistics of trying to work out all the issues .22's have with courses designed for real USPSA shooters, there is the simple fact that it goes against the founding principles of the sport. Principles that many people still believe in. Granted we may gain a few shooters who want to shoot their .22's because they can save a few bucks shooting Federal bulk pack instead of 9mm. But I know we'd also lose some that would be completely disgusted that a sport designed around the defensive use of handguns degenerated to the point people were shooting the courses with .22's.

One thing keeps coming to mind as I read this thread "If they have no bread, let them eat cake". I don't wish to be disrespectful to grand masters and those that have worked so hard to make this sport what it is today. So let's agree to disagree on this. See y'all at the range. Ray

[Chuck Anderson]

It doesn't matter GM or not. I've met more D class shooters who would adamantly defend the founding principles than GM's. Rather than agreeing to disagree, why not turn this thread into something useful. USPSA is in a position to be a governing body for more than just USPSA competition. We actually have multiple disciplines we administer, USPSA, IPSC (and yes Mike, they are different) Steel Challenge and what really is a separate sport, USPSA Multigun. Using the umbrella of USPSA, what would a .22 Discipline, NOT Division look like. How would it be administered, what should it entail. .22 and Centerfire don't mix well on USPSA stages. Why not try and come up with something that does. No guarantees and this is just a pure brainstorming exercise.

[DWFAN]

It doesn't matter GM or not. I've met more D class shooters who would adamantly defend the founding principles than GM's. Rather than agreeing to disagree, why not turn this thread into something useful. USPSA is in a position to be a governing body for more than just USPSA competition. We actually have multiple disciplines we administer, USPSA, IPSC (and yes Mike, they are different) Steel Challenge and what really is a separate sport, USPSA Multigun. Using the umbrella of USPSA, what would a .22 Discipline, NOT Division look like. How would it be administered, what should it entail. .22 and Centerfire don't mix well on USPSA stages. Why not try and come up with something that does. No guarantees and this is just a pure brainstorming exercise.

How about coming up with some standard "Action" stages that clubs can run with their Steel Challenge equipment and a couple walls and barrels ? Maybe a few Half/Full size paper targets thrown in. Max stage 20 rounds (2 mags, or some other arbitrary number). Personally I'd rather shoot this than a typical stand and shoot steel challenge match/stage.

I'm ok with adding onto or modifying Steel Challenge to include Action Rimfire, but opposed to adding a 22 divison to be run concurrently with a USPSA match.

[MarkCO]

One thing keeps coming to mind as I read this thread "If they have no bread, let them eat cake". I don't wish to be disrespectful to grand masters and those that have worked so hard to make this sport what it is today. So let's agree to disagree on this. See y'all at the range. Ray

But you ARE disrespecting the sport and the competitors by insisting on a .22 RF division. USPSA is THE premier action pistol shooting organization, period! The best of the best vie for the wins in USPSA. There are numerous other disciplines where the .22 RF is perfectly acceptable, and in fact desireable. I own and shoot .22 RF, I like it, but it does not belong in USPSA.

Have you petitioned NASCAR to run your SmartCar in the Nextel Cup? Have you petitioned the NFL to shorten the field, use flags instead of tackling and use a NERF? Have you petitioned Dana White for a "slap only" division in the UFC? How about the Olympics, maybe a "floatee division" in swimming. Why not...because it would be nonsense!

The quote that comes to my mind is this: "When the people find they can vote themselves money; that will herald the end of the republic." --Benjamin Franklin

The vocal minority is often credited with effecting change, change that the majority does not want, but lazily accepts. Go read page 1 of your rulebook and then tell us how you propose to get the BOD to eradicate 3 of the 8 basic tenants of this sport! IF you can get the BOD to change the basic tenants of the sport, then you of course have cleared the path for airsoft and .22 RF. Unless you can do that, this talk is pure nonsense.

OTOH, go read the basic concepts of Steel Challenge, and Ruger Rimfire Challenge, and again, as I have asked before, tell me WHY those sports are not doing exactly what the OP stated were the benefits desired. If USPSA is too fast, too competitive, too expensive, play a different sport! When my grandfather got too old to drive, we did not go ask all the speed limits to be reduced, we took away his keys. I don't ask the speed limits to be reduced so my 10 year old can drive either! If I stop enjoying USPSA because of the speed, recoil, etc. as I age, I will still encourage others to keep playing this game and move on to less demanding shooting sports...as my son says...BOOM, it's over.

Edited December 12, 2011 by MarkCO

[MarkCO]

SNIP...USPSA is in a position to be a governing body for more than just USPSA competition...Why not try and come up with (a new discipline that does use .22 RF that USPSA can run).

Now there is a good idea!

[bgary]

[...] I have nothing against airsoft, but it would be just silly to have it recognized by the USPSA.

As I said before ... It already is! USPSA recognizes the right of any USPSA club to run a match by IPSC rules. IPSC HAS AirSoft. Ergo, USPSA recgonizes it. If you like it, organize a match and shoot it. If you don't, don't. But please, do not pretend USPSA does not recognize it.

Let's be careful with terms here.

-- IPSC recognizes airsoft within its rulebook

-- USPSA does *not* recognize airsoft within its rulebook.

A USPSA-affiliated club can run IPSC matches (according to IPSC rules) by virtue of the fact that USPSA is the affliated region of IPSC within the US. But... USPSA does not "recognize" airsoft. USPSA matches are required to be run according to USPSA rules, and there are no mentions of airsoft in the USPSA rulebook.

Chuck has it right - USPSA is, effectively, the "umbrella" organization for a whole collection of practical shooting sports within the US. Under USPSA (the org) there are at least 4 different types of competition available now (USPSA-rules handgun competition, IPSC-rules handgun competition, multigun competition, steel-challenge competition) each with their *own* separate rules. There's no reason that USPSA could not add a form of rimfire competition, with its own set of rules. But... adding rimfire (or airsoft) to the "traditional" form of USPSA-rules handgun competition would totally change the DVC equation that has made it viable for so long.

$.02

[bgary]

SNIP...USPSA is in a position to be a governing body for more than just USPSA competition...Why not try and come up with (a new discipline that does use .22 RF that USPSA can run).

Now there is a good idea!

+1 ...or, maybe instead of re-inventing the wheel, maybe USPSA should align with Ruger Rimfire Challenge in the same way that USPSA has aligned with 3-gun Nation and the major multigun matches to help make multigun stronger and more consistent. USPSA would get access to a whole bunch of rimfire shooters, Ruger would get access to a whole bunch of affiliated clubs, competitors and range-officers...