Magazines in Safe Area?

[mbopp]

I don't CC. And I'm a noob to the IDPA / IPSC scene. So I'm getting ready for a local weekly match and have my gun case, holster, mag carriers, and mags in the bag. I put the holster and mag carriers on my belt, put the firearm in the holster, and put the empty magazines in the mag carriers. No ammunition is in my bag.

I was told by a fellow shooter (not RO) that no magazines are allowed in the safe area. Comments?

[Gary Johnson]

Empty magazines are OK in safety areas.

Here's the rule:

10.5.12

Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word "handling" does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area.

[bbbean]

I don't CC. And I'm a noob to the IDPA / IPSC scene. So I'm getting ready for a local weekly match and have my gun case, holster, mag carriers, and mags in the bag. I put the holster and mag carriers on my belt, put the firearm in the holster, and put the empty magazines in the mag carriers. No ammunition is in my bag.

I was told by a fellow shooter (not RO) that no magazines are allowed in the safe area. Comments?

For USPSA: Magazines on your belt or in your bag are fine. Ammo in a closed box is fine. Just don't load mags or practice your reloads in the safe area. If in doubt, ask an RO.

BB

[sperman]

For USPSA: Practicing reloads is fine, as long as the magazine is empty.

2.4 Safety Areas

The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs. Safety Areas should include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.2 Practice the mounting, drawing, “dry-firing” and re-holstering of unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.3 Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a firearm.

2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories.

[Skydiver]

I don't CC. And I'm a noob to the IDPA / IPSC scene. So I'm getting ready for a local weekly match and have my gun case, holster, mag carriers, and mags in the bag. I put the holster and mag carriers on my belt, put the firearm in the holster, and put the empty magazines in the mag carriers. No ammunition is in my bag.

I was told by a fellow shooter (not RO) that no magazines are allowed in the safe area. Comments?

For USPSA: Magazines on your belt or in your bag are fine. Ammo in a closed box is fine. Just don't load mags or practice your reloads in the safe area. If in doubt, ask an RO.

BB

Practicing reloads in the safety area is allowed as long as it is done with empty magazines. See 2.4.1.3.

[Canuck223]

I don't CC. And I'm a noob to the IDPA / IPSC scene. So I'm getting ready for a local weekly match and have my gun case, holster, mag carriers, and mags in the bag. I put the holster and mag carriers on my belt, put the firearm in the holster, and put the empty magazines in the mag carriers. No ammunition is in my bag.

I was told by a fellow shooter (not RO) that no magazines are allowed in the safe area. Comments?

My guess is what they thought they saw, was slightly different than what happened.

My guess is the guy commenting thought they were loaded.

Every club is a little different. Some will have large, generous safety tables. Others have a spartan ledge.

Often if the table is small, the unwritten rule is you put your gear on elsewhere, and use the table only to unbox the gun.

[Graham Smith]

Just a word of caution. If you are going to be practicing reloads or testing mags, don't have any loaded mags on your belt. It only takes a moments forgetfulness to grab one of them and you are in trouble.

[Poppa Bear]

I don't CC. And I'm a noob to the IDPA / IPSC scene. So I'm getting ready for a local weekly match and have my gun case, holster, mag carriers, and mags in the bag. I put the holster and mag carriers on my belt, put the firearm in the holster, and put the empty magazines in the mag carriers. No ammunition is in my bag.

I was told by a fellow shooter (not RO) that no magazines are allowed in the safe area. Comments?

My guess is what they thought they saw, was slightly different than what happened.

My guess is the guy commenting thought they were loaded.

Every club is a little different. Some will have large, generous safety tables. Others have a spartan ledge.

Often if the table is small, the unwritten rule is you put your gear on elsewhere, and use the table only to unbox the gun.

+1

At my club we gear up at the shooting tables, bring the gun pouch over to the safety area and gun up, load mags etc at the shooting tables. At other ranges the usual practice is to put your gear on at your vehicle, an available shooting table, or even a picnic table sitting by the range house. Then go to the safety area to "Gun up".

We look at mags in the safety area in two ways, either they are empty and the shooter will practice reloads etc. or they are loaded and never leave the mag pouch while in the safety area. I do my reloading practice at home so my mags do not leave the mag pouches while in the safety area.

[bbbean]

For USPSA: Practicing reloads is fine, as long as the magazine is empty.

That's true per the rules, but I wouldn't recommend a new shooter do this.

[shootingchef]

This past weekend at the Gator Classic, there were signs posted at every safe area table that magazine handling was forbidden. I wanted to say something or at least ask, I had a need to check a mag. Could have been a range rule or an overstep, quite frustrating.

[Sarge]

The habit I developed in short order is to only take the gun bag/case to the safe table.

[bayoupirate]

are you sure it didn't say "loaded mags"?

[prodfastc]

Seems like a range trend in North Fl every range I've been at if I'm not mistaken don't allow mags out in safe table area

[Skydiver]

Oh, no! Could it be a "local rule" ?

I'll go find my flame suit now.

[spanky]

are you sure it didn't say "loaded mags"?

It definitely said empty mags also. I wanted to point it out as well but it slipped my mind.

[BayouSlide]

Problem was the sign was obviously made up by somebody unfamiliar with the rule book and was incorrect...to be honest, I've seen those signs for three years or more and never once read the thing beyond "Safe Area".

Curtis

[BayouSlide]

This past weekend at the Gator Classic, there were signs posted at every safe area table that magazine handling was forbidden. I wanted to say something or at least ask, I had a need to check a mag. Could have been a range rule or an overstep, quite frustrating.

Wish you had talked to one of us so we could have sorted it out on the spot...as I noted, I never bothered to read the whole sign after shooting at that range for years.

If you had and it all went south, I would have voted your way in arbitration, as would any other RO with a rule book.

Curtis

[Jim Norman]

Safe Area:

Gun Handling OK

Empty Magazine Handling OK

Ammo on belt and in your shooting bad OK

Loaded mag handling DQ

Taking boxes of ammo out of your bag DQ

Placing boxes of ammo on table DQ

As for local rules, been to a couple ranges that did not allow ammo on belt in safe area. Well marked and the areas were roped off so you had to actually Enter the Area, not just stroll by. Good idea? Bad idea? I think it is overkill, but if that is what is required to keep a range available to us then we need to either accept it of get on the Board and change their rules. You do need approval from HQ for a Local Rule, but I can't see it being withheld if the alternate is losing a range.

[Nik Habicht]

Safe Area:

Gun Handling OK

Empty Magazine Handling OK

Ammo on belt and in your shooting bad OK

Loaded mag handling DQ

Taking boxes of ammo out of your bag DQ

Placing boxes of ammo on table DQ

As for local rules, been to a couple ranges that did not allow ammo on belt in safe area. Well marked and the areas were roped off so you had to actually Enter the Area, not just stroll by. Good idea? Bad idea? I think it is overkill, but if that is what is required to keep a range available to us then we need to either accept it of get on the Board and change their rules. You do need approval from HQ for a Local Rule, but I can't see it being withheld if the alternate is losing a range.

Per the rules not a DQ, as long as the boxes/bags are closed.....

AS NROI teaches the material -- if there's a single move to getting ammo into the gun, match DQ. That means no handling loaded mags, loaded speedloaders, or loose rounds or anything that resembles those items......

Need to rearrange or remove boxes or closed bags of ammo from your bag, to extract tools or spare parts -- that's fine, as long as it's going to take at least two moves to get ammo into the gun.....

[Singlestack]

Per the rules not a DQ, as long as the boxes/bags are closed.....

Care to back that up with a rule Nik?

[wgnoyes]

Actually, he's right, John. George Jones even goes over that in the Lvl1 RO school, and it's a part of the Bar Exam. Handle ammo boxes all you want. (Example as given in class: moving them out of the way to get at something at the bottom of your range bag.) Just don't open them up to where it would be a single action to pick up ("handle") a live round and put it in the gun.

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

An ammo box isn't a a live round. It isn't a loaded magazine, nor is it a loaded speed loading device. Because it isn't specifically named in 2.4.2 and/or 10.5.12, ammo boxes are okay to handle. Just don't open them up.

Thank you for consulting Noyes, Ramsey, and Associates, your friendly neighborhood match arbitration attorneys. You owe us $100.

Edited October 30, 2011 by wgnoyes

[Singlestack]

Actually, he's right, John. George Jones even goes over that in the Lvl1 RO school, and it's a part of the Bar Exam. Handle ammo boxes all you want. (Example as given in class: moving them out of the way to get at something at the bottom of your range bag.) Just don't open them up to where it would be a single action to pick up ("handle") a live round and put it in the gun.

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

An ammo box isn't a a live round. It isn't a loaded magazine, nor is it a loaded speed loading device. Because it isn't specifically named in 2.4.2 and/or 10.5.12, ammo boxes are okay to handle. Just don't open them up.

Thank you for consulting Noyes, Ramsey, and Associates, your friendly neighborhood match arbitration attorneys. You owe us $100.

Just because it is what is being taught, does not make it a rule. The bar exam is all about what is in the book. I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm saying that ain't a rule.

[wgnoyes]

The fact that it isn't named as a prohibited item in 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 says it's okay, and therefore it is a rule. They didn't say you couldn't do it, therefore you can.

$200 now.

[Singlestack]

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Plural. As in more than one and "any circumstances" could mean ammo in a box.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

Plural. As in more than one.

(I'm bored BTW )

[wgnoyes]

I see you're bored.

'Fraid not. You can handle more than one round of ammo at a time in your hand. Reach in the receiving bin on your reloader and grab a handful. You're handling more than one round of ammo.

Think about it. Dillon makes soft-sided ammo bags, partitioned one side for bullets, the other side for brass. What's the difference between that and a hard shell container? (Soft shell v. hard shell. Now I'm thinking about sea food!) Either one is a "storage device". You're really trying to tell me I have to leave that on the ground outside the safe area where someone else can walk off with it while I have my back turned? I can't just plop it on the table?

If so, can you guarantee (as in bet your EF and travel expenses to a major match) that when you place your range bag "storage device" on the table, there isn't ONE round of ammo or piece of spent brass somewhere in the bottom of your bag? Really? By your standards, 3/4ths of the match gets DQ'ed for falling into that trap.

But don't believe me. Go ask Mark. Or newly minted CRO's Ken Wilcox or Randy Arrowood. Or RMI George Jones, for that matter. Plus I'm pretty sure this has already been in addressed in Amidon's regular Q&A article in a Front Sight.

OH! And read 10.5.12 again, particularly the last sentence, and tell me a box or bag isn't a "storage device". A box in your range bag is a storage device within another storage devices. (Now I'm 2 separate actions away from getting ammo into the gun.) I can have magazines and speed loaders in a storage device. I can handle the storage device. I just can't handle it's contents.

It's in the RO Exam. It's taught that way in the Seminars. It's supported by the rulebook. That's the way it is. Come to South River next weekend and we'll go to the safe area and I'll pull out a box of ammo and jump up and down waving it and you can DQ me and I'll arbitrate it and I'll win.

$300.

(And to others: please don't let this explode into a big discussion, because I won't pursue it or play along; I've already been in one scream and shout with a genuine complete idiot on separate and totally inferior shooting forum this week. Golson and I are just picking at one another here!)

Edited October 30, 2011 by wgnoyes