What powder for .223 heavy bullets?

[Religious Shooter]

I bought 8 lbs of Varget. I have a Dillon 650 with the stock powder measure.

It was throwing a spread of .3 grains with the Varget and with one case I noticed that I couldn't see the powder. I took it out and it looked like it only threw in half.

That spooked me a bit so I stopped at 11 rounds.

What can I do? I wasn't resizing (toolhead did not have the resizing die) when I did the above (a fix offered up in another thread).

Is there any better powder out there that's good for heavy bullets (68, 69, 75 grainers) and meters well out of the 650's measure?

[TBF]

Win 748 works well with 69 grainers.

Meters extremely well.

The Dillon should meter Varget better than half a case at a time.

I do not have the same model, so I am no help there.

Travis F.

[KAL]

I use Varget all the time, And on my 650 .2 is the normal spread with the odd .3 every once in awhile. Unless you are bench rest shooting it will not affect you one bit, very rarely are any one hole groups fired in our type of game.

[Tom Freeman]

I like Ramshot TAC and Vhit N540 for the heavies. 748 meters well, but is very temp sensitive.

Try polishing the inside of your powder die insert thingie. It should keep your powder from hanging up and causing half charges.

I made this change and Varget meters a lot better.

For powder advice on heavies, ask on a high power board. All they shoot is 69-90 grainers.

[Gun Geek]

I really like the 2230-C stuff.

Meters great, clean burn, shoots 3/4" groups from my heavy barrel AR. Pushes pills from 45gn up to 80gn

And cheeeeeeeap. Natchez has it for $54.95 for an 8lb keg.

The UPS Hazmat on that is $20 (up to 48 or 50lbs). That's 6 kegs. Shipping will also be about $25 I think, so 45/6 = $7.5 for a net cost of $62.95. About 30% cheaper than I can get other stuff locally.

[warpspeed]

I load varget on a 550 which I think uses the same powder measure.

I have not had any problems and very rarely get more than a 0.2 spread if that.

Take the powder measure apart, clean it, polish all the surfaces and try again.

[uscbigdawg]

Hey RS,

I load Varget on my 650 with 69 SMK's and was getting some of the issues that you described. The big fix, was to clean out everything on the powder measure (it was new) and the die as well as clean and lube the press. Then, and I learned this from my father (a.k.a. The Sarg who loads SD=3 ammo on a rock chucker ) was to be more consistent with the sway I stroke the press.

The good news is that I was getting variations that never exceeded .2 grains (big deal when you're throwing over 25 grains of powder).

The same loads (charge weights) will be safe with the 68's that are listed for the 69's. However, for the big bullets (75's, 77's, 80's & other VLD's) pick up Zideker's book(s) as he describes some of the procedures for running these in AR's (especially the 77's and 80's as they don't generally fit in magazines).

Oh, and hold off on 748 (and it's cousin H335). They meter great and burn clean, but get a little weird when temperatures change. I use 748 in my 55 grain plinker loads, but that's it.

Rich

[redmercury2]

My 200$ harrels measure is only accurate to .2grains of VARGET , so if u can get that with your dillon i say you have no worries

[CAW]

I have used 748 and N-140 in both a 550 and 650. Both seem to work really well. I have also tried H322 and it seems to work great too, but I have not used it as much as the 748 and N-140.

If anyone is interested in load data, I load a 69gr MatchKing with the following powders:

748 25.8grs

N-140 25.8grs

H322 23.0grs

[Religious Shooter]

When you guys say that 748 is temp sensitive... how bad are we talking about?

If you had to use 748 and wanted to make minor throughout the whole US, how much over (fps-wise) would be ideal?

[George]

Hi RS,

If I wanted to make PF always, in all weather I would stick with the Varget. I have found ball powders to be a little spooky whenever they are out of their zone (optimum case capacity). 748 is good stuff, but it follows the sun somewhat (that's a joke son) and the same goes for AA2520 which is fantastic under heavy .223's (69-80's), but gets real fast, real fast when it gets hot.

Varget is the winner so far for me under 69gr and up. 748 is fine as long as I have used larger amounts under small projectiles (ie, 28gr under 55gr at 3150-3200). When the amount of 748 drops to 3/4 case, or less it goes a little non-linear IME.

Varget will meter on a Dillon if you can get a little slam into the measure at the top of the stroke when the measure is dumping. I run my 550 without a sizing die (I size separately) and slam the last part of the up-stroke which keeps the tubular powder grains from bridging in the measure cavity. You just can't hit home at the top of the stroke properly when you size at the same time. It is not a huge impact, but more like a little sharp slap. Varget is worth the hassles.

BTW, it helps to keep a can of compressed air handy when loading Varget because if any of the tubular grains get under the shellplate, it grinds it up and makes a mess so I blow any spillage away immediately if it happens.

--

Regards,

BTW, if you make it to Ione for the CA 3gun this weekend, I will see you there.

George,

[SVI4ME]

I had some problems with my 1050 and varget. and SMK 69's. Would not fill the case fast enough and would spill. So on my bottom stroke I give the handle a small double tap and no problems.

Yes sir eeeee George. Ione is the place next sunday..............

[Lee Watne]

Some people have good results with AA2520 and Sierra 77's and 80's. I know a guy that made High Power Master with that combination.

[Lee Watne]

I forgot to say that AA2520 is a ball powder that meters extremely well. It's like tiny graphite coated ball bearings. It will take compression too.

One trick with the Varget is to hesitate at the bottom of the reloading stroke and give it time to meter out. Also wiping the inside of the powder measure with a fabric softener tissue will help eliminate static electricity.

[paraman1]

Another plug for the TAC powder from Ramshot with the 69 grain bullet . Excellent accuracy and the stuff is like Silt dust so it meters awesome . I was getting 1/2 inch or better groups in my AR with it at 100 yards .

[Bruce]

Have shot a bunch of 69 sierra's with 24.x-25.x of VV N140, buddy swears by the 77's and (as I recall) about 26g of VV N550. Test your own, of course.

[JFD]

I use H335 or the equivalent military surplus WCC844 for all my 55 and 69 grain loads. This stuff meters really well and I've never had a problem with it in summer versus winter.

[kellyn]

A second vote for AA2230-C with the 68-69 grain bullets. I'm getting awesome groups with this powder shooting a 69 Nosler in a JP 1 in 9 upper (the load I'll be shooting at the 3 gun nationals and possibly the Rocky Mountain 3 gun). And as noted, it's CHEAP.

But I think 2230-C is a bit fast for the 75/77s. Varget and RE15 (nearly the same thing) are probably the ideal. Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks is a firm believer in RE15 in the AR15.

748 has always had the rep of being temp sensitive. I've not shot it in enough different temps to have a personal opinion.

[TBF]

748 seems to get a bad rap from guys who load it to " signs of pressure " then back off a little.( Highpower and service rifle shooters are " hotrodders " , not that there is anything wrong with that, but some have been known to use a little more powder than recommended in the search for velocity . )

Yeah, it ain't Varget ( relatively temp insensitive ) but , it meters well.

So does H335.

( actually you cannot visually tell the difference between H335, W748, B LC2, and A2230 )

Stick with pressure tested data , and slightly under max, and IME you will not have any problems.

Unless you leave a round in a hot chamber a little too long...

Finishing several 30 round mags real quick, and chambering a round, and letting it sit for 60 seconds will raise pressure with ANY powder.

How much room for error velocity wise ?

I dunno.

IMHO none of the above powders ( especially BLC2 ) will work well with reduced loads.

I would not back any of them ( especially BLC2 ) off more than 15% from recommended data. ( not because they will blow up anything, but they don't seem to work all that well )

Take the above with a grain of salt ( or two ) because there are a whole bunch of shooters that have more valid opinions and more experience.

Just my .o2...

Travis F.

[Religious Shooter]

I went ahead and loaded some more rounds. I did another 150 and it only pulled that half-case load deal once. Surprisingly even with the .3 spread I got good results (IMHO) SD-wise.

With 69 SMK, 25.6 (+/-.3) grains Varget, mixed cases, WSR, 16" barrel:

2830 2798 2802 2788 2803

2796 2793 2795 2799 2783

2805 2792 2799 2788 2764

STDEV: 13.85 fps ; STDEVWOE: 6.5 fps

I can't shoot groups worth crap. I don't know how some people can get sub-moa consistently. With 11 rounds of the SMK @ 200 yards: 11 shot 5.5" (2.25 MOA); 8 shot 3 5/8"; 6 shot 3"; 3 shot .75" (edge to edge).

With 68 Hornady Match BTHP, 25.6 (+/-.3) grains Varget, mixed cases, WSR, 16" barrel:

2791 2792 2764 2797 2781

2795 2786 2791 2808 2802

STDEV: 12.0927 fps ; STDEVWOE: 6.47 fps

With 75 Hornady A-Max, 23.6 (+/-.3) grains Varget, mixed cases, WSR, 16" barrel:

2572 2536 2558 2520 2542

2547 2549 2532 2487 2559

2512 2552 2537 2573 2554

2559

STDEV: 22.45 fps ; STDEVWOE: 16.35 fps

(Someone should start a .223 IPSC load list like J Maas has for .40/9x21/.38 Super. MODERATORS: Can we have a sticky post with load data for .223?. First post would summarize all the posts in the thread?)

[ErikW]

I thought the 75 A-Max was too long for magazine-length rounds?

If you can get Varget to meter in a Dillon, go for it, the stuff is great.

This morning I chrono'd loads with the Nosler 77gr Custom Competition over WC846 surplus (same as 748). I've got a load that's a hair slow (2716 fps) but I think I should go with it because the coming 3 gun matches will generally be 10-30 degrees F warmer than this morning at the chrono.

I don't see the need for a .223 loads database. There are a bazillion web pages of highpower shooters' loads for 52-77gr mag length loads well above the USPSA/IPSC minimum power factor. Jeff Maass' resources were needed because nobody else hot-rodded .355 with light bullets and .40 loaded long.

[Religious Shooter]

I just loaded it a length that would fit in the mag. The flat shoulder was pushed in and the slope began on the inside of the case. I don't think your missing anything with the 75 grain A-max. I think the polymer tip can get messed up feeding into an AR chamber. I guess I was enamored with the high BC and wasn't thinking when I got a box.

The reloading list would be more for the IPSC shooter (like me) who wants to load close to the PF floor.

[George]

I've got a load that's a hair slow (2716 fps) but I think I should go with it because the coming 3 gun matches will generally be 10-30 degrees F warmer than this morning at the chrono

What are you worried about? Making Major 2716x77=209.131PF

I run my 77’s at 2625-2650fps, they work fine there. It still makes minor (200-204PF)

Seriously Erik, back it down a bit and case life, bbl throat life and bolt life will go up a little and the 77’s will still go downrange quite nicely. The High Power boys push em big, but anything over 2700-2725 is too much for IPSC for sure, and even 2700 is big compared to the 150 PF floor. I’m staying where I am for the comp action, but I ain’t going faster for IPSC. I have a nice High Power load that pushes SMK 77’s out of an HBAR 1:7 20” at 2725-2750 and it’s just about primer piercing hot (24.0 AA2520).

--

Regards,

[ktyler]

I have been having great luck with Ramshot Tac with both my Hornady 68 and 75's. Running about 24.4 gr with the 68 and 23.9 with the 75. I was getting 3 inch groups with my iron sighted JP at 300 yards.

[ErikW]

Religious Shooter, I'd watch out for pressure loading non-mag-length bullets at mag length. Or rather, I just plain wouldn't do it. I'm assuming the 75 A-Max isn't for mag length, but I know Hornady does have a 75 BTHP for mag length.

George, I just wanted 2750 because it's said to be the best speed for the 77 and velocity is always good for countering drop and drift. I don't care about case life; it's all lost brass to me. I've only got these 77s for the windiest conditions; I'll use 69s (@ a wimpy 2770) in less harsh conditions.