Shoot fast or shoot accurate?

[Ofishl1]

In April I shot my first IPSC competion at a local club here in Phx and won the "Newbie" TYRO award for my first event, got severly hooked, joined the club, joined USPSA. trained and passed to become a CRO (btw, George Jones hooked me up with BENOS site),.. and shoot almost every week now and weekends when they are scheduled, as in monthly Classifiers, Steel Challenge,...I have not had any "competition" training from anywhere, but some from the GM's in our Super Squads when they tolerate me, ..some from the few Singlestackers (where I started at with 1911 .45) and Limited guys,...yet little other advice than to grip right, and focus on your front sight,...AND slow is smooth and smooth is fast....well OK...now I am haflway thru Brians book and have new concepts in my brain and is on overload.. I think...... back to my topic question:

There are guys that are shooting less accurately, however, 10-20 seconds overall faster than me that have moved on in Class...in many cases I know I scored better than they did on several stages (usually 5 overall),...but even tho they werent hitting as many "A"s "or" getting many penalties either for that matter,...they still came out faster and beat me in the class...should I just keep focusing on accuracy and let the speed come?,...am I pushing to hard to move up too soon in this game?

I have won a couple of times in my class and won "D" Limited last week out of 8 others, and saw my overall time for all 5 stages was on par with the B and C class shooters... yet sometimes I feel like it may be better to blow and go for good time on some stages and just nuetralize targets...and take A's if I get them?

Appreciate your suggestions as I have read hours of great advice in here, (reloading too) and know more is coming, ..Thanks!

Edited September 27, 2011 by Ofishl1

[juan]

I think we can get hooked in our comfort zone, and never really progress.

if you do not have practice time to push and see where the wheels fall off. push yourself at a few matches

use them for practice.

but I bet you can shave a ton of time and not shoot any faster, by beign ready before your in position, when not shooting running,

calling your shots and not looking for holes

and good stage break down.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Speed comes with practice and experience. Shoot your comfort zone and let it come.

[Ofishl1]

Speed comes with practice and experience. Shoot your comfort zone and let it come.

I practice a lot at the range, but have never done much in dry fire drills, I see it mentioned here enough that I know it must produce results and need to get into a routine of some sort, thanks.

[DoubleA]

As you get further up the classes, points will start separating the shooters. In the beginning it is easy to shoot and move fast while sacrificing A hits for C's and D's and still win your class, but this is a dead end road that has a lot of potential to burn up tons of practice ammo and yield bad habits that cost even more ammo to correct.

Learn to shoot accurately and practice it some every time you go to the range. This fundamental is the rock you want to build other skills on. The more you practice this, the more efficiently you will be capable of recognizing and firing an accurate shot that is suitable for the target you are engaging. This efficiency will in turn be perceived as speed on the timer when the COF is over, especially when steel is involved and you don't have to fire all those make up shots just to finish it.

[Ofishl1]

As you get further up the classes, points will start separating the shooters. In the beginning it is easy to shoot and move fast while sacrificing A hits for C's and D's and still win your class, but this is a dead end road that has a lot of potential to burn up tons of practice ammo and yield bad habits that cost even more ammo to correct.

Learn to shoot accurately and practice it some every time you go to the range. This fundamental is the rock you want to build other skills on. The more you practice this, the more efficiently you will be capable of recognizing and firing an accurate shot that is suitable for the target you are engaging. This efficiency will in turn be perceived as speed on the timer when the COF is over, especially when steel is involved and you don't have to fire all those make up shots just to finish it.

I can understand your logic, and have experienced stages shot what I perceived as slow as if time was in half a click, however found I was very smooth and accurate scoring almost perfect,...I sure did not feel like it was a fast run, yet the efficiency of accurate shots and no wasted movements turned a good time...although they seem to be random and inconsistent, speed AND consistent accuracy is the holy grail,..with my limited exposure, this I see mostly in the Masters and GM's on their open and limited guns..

[Chris iliff]

As you get further up the classes, points will start separating the shooters. In the beginning it is easy to shoot and move fast while sacrificing A hits for C's and D's and still win your class, but this is a dead end road that has a lot of potential to burn up tons of practice ammo and yield bad habits that cost even more ammo to correct.

Learn to shoot accurately and practice it some every time you go to the range. This fundamental is the rock you want to build other skills on. The more you practice this, the more efficiently you will be capable of recognizing and firing an accurate shot that is suitable for the target you are engaging. This efficiency will in turn be perceived as speed on the timer when the COF is over, especially when steel is involved and you don't have to fire all those make up

shots just to finish it.

I would add that in my experience, YOU GOT TO PUSH! That whole "speed will come" thing is misleading. Think, "how can I shoot sooner?". Think, "I move quickly, but I don't rush. "

Practice out of your comfort zone. Set up a wall with two or three targets behind either end. Now pick a starting point like ten or so feet away. Move to that wall and engage those targets. You can just do one end at a time. Time your runs, eliminate wasted movement. Concentrate on key things like gun up, set up, hitting A's. Get your times down and work at decreasing them. Vary your starting points, but know what all distances and angles are so you can duplicate the drill and record your efforts.

During this training you have to push hard while maintaing your hits. By doing this you change your comfort zone.

At the matches, just shoot. Leave practice for practice.

[Red Ryder]

Shoot all A's.....very fast! Truth is everyone starts out slow. I shoot A's but I do it slowly. I don't have the fundamentals down pat...yet. Focus on the fundamentals - stage breakdown, stance, draw, front sight focus, target aquisition, grip, trigger pull, double taps, footwork, and finaly, movement. Everyone progresses at their own rate. Juggle the fundamentals successfully and speed will come. 95% of practice should be done at home. Many shooters have the will to improve,,,but few have the will to prepare to improve. Do your homework and you will get better. Fluid movement comes when you compete without thinking about it. Everything starts to happen in the unconscious mind. All of this comes with sacrifice. Less time with your kids, wife, girlfriend, yard work, house work etc. It all boils down to commitment and hard work. Sometimes you meet shooters that were born with a gift. The rest of us have to work at it.

[Postal Bob]

Dont get hung up on focusing on the sights too much. You need to practice getting on target quickly, and firing off those shots. The more you focus on the sights, the longer it'll be before that first shot. If you take an extra second at each target to line up sights, you'll lose 10-15 seconds a stage. This is exactly what I'm trying to do myself. I know this is hard to do, but that's what practice is for.

[DoubleA]

You cannot miss fast enough to win.

As stated in a previous post, in the beginning you will start out slower than you want to be, but if you try to shoot at the speed of a Master or GM you will never learn to see what you need to see to fire an A zone hit on a target 3 yards away and 50 yards away.

When pure speed is your focus Mikes, D's, and No Shoots are in your near future. The point of it all is to learn to read your sights quickly and act accordingly to the task at hand. This takes time and experience and you have to accept that. You can cheat your way to C and even B class, but that is why so many shooters get stuck there. They are still trying to shoot C's faster and it just won't happen unless you get a lot of those classifiers with open targets and really high hit factors.

The goal is to shoot for all A's on the edge of control. This means that C's will happen, you just don't want more than 10% of your hits to be C's. There is no need to make dime sized groups in the middle of the A zone, just do what it takes to hit it and know that you hit it.

You have to learn to call your shots.

[TonyT]

Accuracy should be your first gal. Speed comes with familiarity and time.

[blaster113]

read somewhere that the goal is to be shooting 90% of the points available on a stage. move fast, shoot slow or something like that. efficient movement into/between positions will save tons of time. learning to efficiently break down stages will help alot in this area. stuff like missed shots on steel or extra shots on moving targets also take up time and add up. try to focus on shooting mostly A's and on being efficient with movement, the speed will come in time.

Edited September 28, 2011 by blaster113

[inkballedtarget]

read somewhere that the goal is to be shooting 90% of the points available on a stage. move fast, shoot slow or something like that. efficient movement into/between positions will save tons of time. learning to efficiently break down stages will help alot in this area. stuff like missed shots on steel or extra shots on moving targets also take up time and add up. try to focus on shooting mostly A's and on being efficient with movement, the speed will come in time.

I too have heard this.. It seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb!

[CocoBolo]

"The only thing worse than a miss, is a slow miss" Go shoot a steel match by the 3rd stage the value of Accuracy will be imminently clear. When I get too fast for my eyes I always just shoot a few steel matches after a good humbling I'm back to great scores and good times. To quote "Enos" Take the time you need to make the hit but only that time. The concept is that you cannot rush the shot, to go faster just quit wasting time by pausing, and moving inefficiently, positioning poorly etc.

[Jman]

An interesting thread on this topic. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=126012&st=0&p=1422478&hl=speed%20accuracy%20&fromsearch=1entry1422478

[sauza45]

I was stuck in B class for some time. My points were very good but my time was slow. Talking with other top shooter they said my splits are good but my movment was slow.

I started working on my stage breakdown, my movment through the stage to get faster. I did not shoot any faster just move faster and cut out wasted movemnet.

I am now an A class shooter and knocking on M class. I believe there is sooo much time to be made up in your moving then there is in shooting. Shoot for A's but move as fast as you

can between shots.

[bkeeler]

Shoot in your comfort zone for big matches.It sounds like you can shoot accurately when you need to. Use practice and some local matches to raise your comfort zone (in other words push yourself out of your comfort zone in practice and local matches shoot fast!) Something like this :Control / Abandon before you no it your comfort zone will be higher and allow you to shoot faster and more accurately while going faster with out any effort.

Edited September 29, 2011 by bkeeler

[Allgoodhits]

Shoot at the speed that "you" need to reach the accuracy level "you" are capable of. Develope the skill to shoot A's then shoot them as fast as "you" can, accepting that a few points will get away from time to time. If too many points are getting away because of speed, slow down. Develope the skill, then let the sights and your physical abilities dictate the speed.

[Poppa Bear]

Accuracy is more important than speed. The key is to shoot faster while getting your hits. The first thing to do is see how accurate you are. Shoot 10 shots slow aimed fire and see how big the group is. Now increase that measurement by 50%. This is your desired group size for the following drill. There is a thread on here with a video where Rob L. does a timed drill. 1 shot in 3 seconds, 2 shots in 3 seconds, 3 shots, 4 shots,.... The key of the drill is to find out where you move from accuracy to spraying the target because you are squeezing the trigger faster than you are bringing the gun back into proper alignment. Now drop back to the first shot count where accuracy starts to disappear and practice until you get the shots hitting in the required group size. When you can do that consistently then add an extra shot. Practice until you are again getting all shots into the proper group size within the par time.

This drill can also improve your overall accuracy with practice. The shooter who in 3 seconds can produce 2" groups at 10 yards will always beat the shooter who can only produce 4" groups at 10 yards because as distance increases the groups will only get larger. They will still be hitting the A zone while you are hitting the C, D, or Mike. As you get more shots into your group within the par time, you will start to think you have all the time in the world when you are shooting at a slower pace. Shoot another slow fire string and you should find your overall group size smaller. This is your new basis for the exercise.

You can also try increasing your distance. Shooting this exercise at 7 yards with the desire of 6 shots in 3 seconds, move it back to 10 yards and strive for the same group size for a 6 shot string, move it back to 15 yards.

There are all kinds of variations on drills like this that you can use to combine speed with accuracy.

[George]

The available points on a given stage is based on shooting all A's (5 points per A). A good rule of thumb is that you need to shoot 90-92% of the available points on a stage at a minimum. Shooting all A's is usually a time waster to some degree depending on the course. Shooting so fast that you get mostly C's is a waste of points. The proper balance is found when you shoot as fast as you can while still reaping 90% or more of the available stage points.

[Ofishl1]

You cannot miss fast enough to win.

As stated in a previous post, in the beginning you will start out slower than you want to be, but if you try to shoot at the speed of a Master or GM you will never learn to see what you need to see to fire an A zone hit on a target 3 yards away and 50 yards away.

When pure speed is your focus Mikes, D's, and No Shoots are in your near future. The point of it all is to learn to read your sights quickly and act accordingly to the task at hand. This takes time and experience and you have to accept that. You can cheat your way to C and even B class, but that is why so many shooters get stuck there. They are still trying to shoot C's faster and it just won't happen unless you get a lot of those classifiers with open targets and really high hit factors.

The goal is to shoot for all A's on the edge of control. This means that C's will happen, you just don't want more than 10% of your hits to be C's. There is no need to make dime sized groups in the middle of the A zone, just do what it takes to hit it and know that you hit it.

You have to learn to call your shots.

That is exactly what is happening, I am hitting the target then the follow up shot is a no-shoot...I noticed at the match thursday night the spread between my A zone hit and the no-shoot hole was almost 6-8 inches...consistently, and this is killing my scores regardless if my time was good,...anytime there is no shoot cover partial targets I am clipping the NS or hitting well into it..

Edited October 1, 2011 by Ofishl1

[Ofishl1]

Accuracy is more important than speed. The key is to shoot faster while getting your hits. The first thing to do is see how accurate you are. Shoot 10 shots slow aimed fire and see how big the group is. Now increase that measurement by 50%. This is your desired group size for the following drill. There is a thread on here with a video where Rob L. does a timed drill. 1 shot in 3 seconds, 2 shots in 3 seconds, 3 shots, 4 shots,.... The key of the drill is to find out where you move from accuracy to spraying the target because you are squeezing the trigger faster than you are bringing the gun back into proper alignment. Now drop back to the first shot count where accuracy starts to disappear and practice until you get the shots hitting in the required group size. When you can do that consistently then add an extra shot. Practice until you are again getting all shots into the proper group size within the par time.

This drill can also improve your overall accuracy with practice. The shooter who in 3 seconds can produce 2" groups at 10 yards will always beat the shooter who can only produce 4" groups at 10 yards because as distance increases the groups will only get larger. They will still be hitting the A zone while you are hitting the C, D, or Mike. As you get more shots into your group within the par time, you will start to think you have all the time in the world when you are shooting at a slower pace. Shoot another slow fire string and you should find your overall group size smaller. This is your new basis for the exercise.

You can also try increasing your distance. Shooting this exercise at 7 yards with the desire of 6 shots in 3 seconds, move it back to 10 yards and strive for the same group size for a 6 shot string, move it back to 15 yards.

There are all kinds of variations on drills like this that you can use to combine speed with accuracy.

That is a good one, I practiced that at the indoor range recently...thanks.

[Ofishl1]

Shoot at the speed that "you" need to reach the accuracy level "you" are capable of. Develope the skill to shoot A's then shoot them as fast as "you" can, accepting that a few points will get away from time to time. If too many points are getting away because of speed, slow down. Develope the skill, then let the sights and your physical abilities dictate the speed.

Yes, I am resigned to agree with you here, I stayed within my self 2 weeks ago, and found I beat everyone in my D-class and graudated to C,....the next match on last Sunday, I missed everything going too fast and was beat by the D"s....I can hit a lot of A's at a certain speed, but it seems painfully slow, right now there is is a very defined line between hitting A's, more speed and hitting C-D...or misses completely...so I am going to back down and try to place better by getting time deducted via hitting the A zone and track my times at the slower rate of fire and see how far off I am from the top guy....

Winning isnt everything, but right now winning seems to be the only thing...and I may be expecting too much for 4 months,...too soon..thank guys for all your input,..it is taken to heart.

[ihatepickles]

Calling shots is the single most beneficial thing I've learned. Speed and accuracy both derive from calling shots.

Working hard on your grip mechanics will produce great returns on the time you invest. Break it down, refine it, learn what works for you. Learn the grip mechanics that make the sights return to exactly where they were before recoil bounced them. Be curious.

Shorter stages favor point strategies. Longer stages favor speed strategies. I don't really think that should be an important concern for newer shooters though, the fundamentals are so much more important than strategy.

DVC

[Ofishl1]

Calling shots is the single most beneficial thing I've learned. Speed and accuracy both derive from calling shots.

Working hard on your grip mechanics will produce great returns on the time you invest. Break it down, refine it, learn what works for you. Learn the grip mechanics that make the sights return to exactly where they were before recoil bounced them. Be curious.

Shorter stages favor point strategies. Longer stages favor speed strategies. I don't really think that should be an important concern for newer shooters though, the fundamentals are so much more important than strategy.

DVC

So I shot a classifier yesterday, I did OK on the first 2 stages, then started to speed up and had Mikes on the next 3 stages, slowed down on a large Comstock 29 round run-n-gun stage with movers, disappearing clamshell, steel, in and out lanes, 3 reloads and finish it off the run with an 8 plate rack...as we were scoring, I noticed there were no misses,...no mikes,...however many B-C and C-D combos, and a few A-C A-D combos,..this was an intense stage but sharp focus and going slower and smooth was the essential element to a good run (in my class)...so I ended up 9th out 19 in limited, then did the same thing on another stage,...and surprising to me I was 4th out of 19 being bested by B, A, and M shooters,....this was a decent time, but the key again was no Mikes, no Misses, and well over half the field had penalties here...I am detecting a pattern....Accuracy must be my focus,...I can turn times close to the big dogs, but they come at the expense of accuracy....I would rather be know as the guy who rarely misses, not the guy that ..."oh he's fast for a Newbie,...but he cant hit a Bull in the ass with a sack of wheat...."