Catching the bullet when unloading

[Skydiver]

There are shooters who very slowly rack the slide and let the bullet dribble out and land on their finger that is against the frame/slide. Assuming we considered flipping and catching the bullet as USGH, is dribbling the bullet also considered USGH?

If yes, is it the act catching the bullet that make it USGH? If so, when RO's who catch bullets being ejected out are also contributing to the practice?

If it's not catching the bullet that makes both unsafe, what elements of both practices make them unsafe? If the danger is the a bullet may have a delayed detonation, isn't there an equal chance of the bullet having a delayed detonation while it is being ejected regularly and flying through the air, or while it is laying on the ground?

If flipping the bullet is considered USGH, but the dribbling the bullet is not, that what is it about flipping that makes it unsafe?

Edited August 29, 2011 by Skydiver

[spanky]

Flip/Catch is USGH? DQable?

[Dan Hefta]

Flip/Catch is USGH? DQable?

I agree but I have read it on this forum that some RO's hate that and they will DQ shooters for doing it... I personally don't care as long as they don't sweep themselves and the gun is clear and holstered properly.

[Skydiver]

Flip/Catch is USGH? DQable?

Nope, it's not with the current rules.

Some people consider it an unsafe practice, and I want to explore what about the action makes people feel that it is unsafe.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Skydiver

[Neomet]

Assumption one is incorrect. Although certainly a hot topic of debate here on if it is safe or not, you can go watch the SS in a couple weeks and watch the process done repeatedly with no USGH.

Not saying if it should or should not be. I left the Kevlar at home.

[Corey]

This has been hit a bunch of times.

What makes it "unsafe" is the idea that you are turning the gun sideways to eject the round into the air. When the gun is sideways, the ejector is below the round. If the round slips off the extractor and gets pulled down into the ejector, the end of it could strike the primer and bad things happen...

[Skydiver]

This has been hit a bunch of times.

What makes it "unsafe" is the idea that you are turning the gun sideways to eject the round into the air. When the gun is sideways, the ejector is below the round. If the round slips off the extractor and gets pulled down into the ejector, the end of it could strike the primer and bad things happen...

I can see it happening with a 1911 style flat breech face/area, but what about other gun designs that have a "hood" around where the base of the cartridge keeping it in place (ex. CZ's) or where the ejector is dramatically lower than firing pin hole (ex. Glocks)? Since the practice maybe unsafe with one gun design, it is universally unsafe?

So it's not the actually flipping, but it's the turning the gun on it's side. When unloading at a table, I turn my gun to the right to make the bullet land in front of me on the table. Is it turning the gun in general that is unsafe or is it turning the gun in the direction of the ejector that is unsafe?

Edited August 29, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Thinking about this some more, I know of a couple of very safety conscious shooters who tilt their guns left about 45 degrees as they rack the slide when I ask them to unload and show clear. They presumably do this so that they can also see that the chamber is clear and minimize movement. Should I warn them about this potentially "unsafe" practice?

[moverfive]

The flipping of bullets out of gun doesn't isn't always an accurate description of what folks do. If one simply yanks back on the slide and immediately lets go of the slide, then yes that is dangerous. I have seen where the ejector hit the primer and caused the round to go off.....not a pretty sight.

However, if one simply pulls back on the slide real hard, sees the bullet leave the gun, and then drops the slide.....nothing wrong with that.

So just because you see a bullet fly out of the gun, that doesn't necessarily mean someone is "flipping" a bullet out of a gun in a dangerous manner.

[Joe4d]

As an RO, I will enforce the rules as written, I will also comply with the RM about any gray areas without any heartburn. I also dont think you can write an enforceable hard racking flipping rule. Maybe a no catch rule, the catch rule is pretty much only dangerous to the person doing the catching so knock yourself out.

If you're a flipper I'm gonna end up asking you to open your slide again so I can see the chamber after you're done.

The sideways part can lead to a detonation, however unlikely it could happen. I have witnessed and seen the results of catching a round and having it go off in a closed fist. Not pretty. Holding your hand over the ejection port while opening the slide is just as dangerous. Probably extremely unlikely that anything will happen but it could. There really isnt much point to it other than looking cool.

[aztecdriver]

Joe,

I saw you post the "round going off in a closed hand" before, and I thought about it awhile - what set it off? Someone have a diamond ring on or something - because there is nothing in my hand hard enough to ding a primer. just a curiousity about the experience.

Edited August 29, 2011 by aztecdriver

[dsmw5142]

Joe,

I saw you post the "round going off in a closed hand" before, and I thought about it awhile - what set it off? Someone have a diamond ring on or something - because there is nothing in my hand hard enough to ding a primer. just a curiousity about the experience.

Wedding band maybe?

I would think it would have to be a high primer, but who knows. Sometimes things come together just right for some unfortunate person.

[Sarge]

Joe,

I saw you post the "round going off in a closed hand" before, and I thought about it awhile - what set it off? Someone have a diamond ring on or something - because there is nothing in my hand hard enough to ding a primer. just a curiousity about the experience.

I asked the same thing. Sounds pretty far fetched but I guess its possible. Hell ANYTHING is possible.

As for why I feel it is unsafe:

If you watch in slow motion when some people flip the gun you will see they often don't have the best control of the gun. They point over the berm or in nearly other unsafe directions for an instant and trigger fingers get to flailing around as well. Watch their heads they look up to catch the round and break concentration on the gun.

The funny part is that flippers often, after going through the above circus act, then very deliberately open the gun to show clear, focus on pointing the gun in a safe direction to pull the trigger and then methodically holster and lock everything down. Very counterintuitive.

[MarkCO]

While I think the practice is rude and unreasonable, I don't think there is any rulebook support for disallowing it. And NO, I am not sticking my hand out to catch your bullet either.

[CZinSC]

Rack/flip/catch = USGH. I don't personally think so. Unwise? Yes. I classify the "flip/catch" into the category of "nothing bad should ever go wrong". A few things need to happen in order for a detonation to occur. So I wouldn't necessarily classify it as USGH. It's more likely to happen with a 1911/2011 (as I'm told, I don't know because I don't own either) and rare with Glock/CZ.

Even if it's a one in a million chance of something happening, if I can avoid it with a safe action of my own, ie: not flipping/catching, I will take it. It's not worth the expense and permanent disfigurement to me to do the flip and catch God forbid something goes wrong. Overly cautious? Maybe. I'd rather be overly cautious than sitting at the ER saying "Crap, if I just let the damn thing drop on the ground I'd still be shooting right now and not worrying if they can stitch this missing part back onto my hand, or, how is the world going to look with only one eye?".

As an RO, I will NEVER catch a flipped bullet. If I ever run across someone that has an issue with that, I'll simply ask them to point to the rule that requires the me as the RO to take my eyes off of their gun still out of the holster in order to catch their bullet. Politeness doesn't trump my safety.

[MarkCO]

Here are some photographs of a detonation that occurred at ULASC. Yes, there was minor injury. I'll not post the shooters name, but he is experienced and I am posting with his approval. I looked at these under the microscope to make sure it was in fact a detonation off the ejector.

The potential for a detonation is increased by the way some shooter do the flip and catch. If someone does something stupid, IMHO, that is their option in America...so long as I don't have to pay for it and it does no one else ANY harm.

[ima45dv8]

There are shooters who very slowly rack the slide and let the bullet dribble out and land on their finger that is against the frame/slide. Assuming we considered flipping and catching the bullet as USGH, is dribbling the bullet also considered USGH?

If yes, is it the act catching the bullet that make it USGH? If so, when RO's who catch bullets being ejected out are also contributing to the practice?

If it's not catching the bullet that makes both unsafe, what elements of both practices make them unsafe? If the danger is the a bullet may have a delayed detonation, isn't there an equal chance of the bullet having a delayed detonation while it is being ejected regularly and flying through the air, or while it is laying on the ground?

If flipping the bullet is considered USGH, but the dribbling the bullet is not, that what is it about flipping that makes it unsafe?

Good grief!

"Assuming we considered ..."

I reject your entire premise and this thread as a wanton waste and murder of innocent electrons, because we don't consider it USGH; not from a rules perspective. You know that very well from the other thread. You admit that in the very next post below.

Flip/Catch is USGH? DQable?

Nope, it's not with the current rules.

Some people consider it an unsafe practice, and I want to explore what about the action makes people feel that it is unsafe.

That's something else you've already been told in the other thread. What ask it again here?

Thinking about this some more, I know of a couple of very safety conscious shooters who tilt their guns left about 45 degrees as they rack the slide when I ask them to unload and show clear. They presumably do this so that they can also see that the chamber is clear and minimize movement. Should I warn them about this potentially "unsafe" practice?

Lord help us...

[Gary Johnson]

Flip/Catch is USGH? DQable?

I agree but I have read it on this forum that some RO's hate that and they will DQ shooters for doing it... I personally don't care as long as they don't sweep themselves and the gun is clear and holstered properly.

Any RO that makes that statement needs to be reported to NROI. ROs can't DQ people for doing things they don't like. DQs are the result of violating safety rules. At present, ejecting a round by rapidly opening the slide is not an unsafe action as defined in the rule book.

As to the question of safety, racking the slide to eject a round is standard practice for every model I know of and I've never seen or heard of a speed limit. If anyone knows of a manufacturer that specifies the action should be opened slowly please pass that info to NROI so it can be incorporated into the RO training program. If a handgun is prone to detonation as a result of normal unloading that also needs to be reported to NROI so that gun can be excluded from USPSA matches.

What is patently unsafe is trying to eject a round with your hand over the ejection port. All of the detonations I have seen/heard of occurred because the operator had his hand over the ejection port trapping the round and causing it to hit the ejector.

There's nothing wrong with a competitor ejecting a round vigorously but it does bother me when he tries to catch it. It is distracting and unnecessary. To my knowledge NROI trains ROs not to attempt catching an ejected round for those and other reasons. I prefer the 'roll the gun on its side and let the round roll out into my hand' method. It accomplishes the same task without the showmanship and RO distraction inherent with 'flipping'.

Having said that I still can't classify the practice as unsafe. Annoying? Yes. Unprofessional, ostentatious, vainglorious and pretentious? Yes. But it's not unsafe.

[beltjones]

I really don't see why it's annoying, unprofessional, etc etc.

Ammunition is expensive, and I can't count on the RO to prevent the round from falling on the ground. Once a round hits the ground, unless I see exactly where it lands it's a lost cause. I'm certainly not going to pick up a mystery 9mm round and load it into one of my magazines and hope it's not someone's 9mm Major ammo that will blow up my Glock.

Instead I rack the slide and lock it open. A circumstance of that action is that the cartridge comes out of the gun and hits me in the mid chest area, where I catch it and prevent it from falling on the ground.

It has nothing to do with showing off - I'm just trying to save a round. I think there might be what psychologists call "projecting" going on here...

[Skydiver]

There are shooters who very slowly rack the slide and let the bullet dribble out and land on their finger that is against the frame/slide. Assuming we considered flipping and catching the bullet as USGH, is dribbling the bullet also considered USGH?

If yes, is it the act catching the bullet that make it USGH? If so, when RO's who catch bullets being ejected out are also contributing to the practice?

If it's not catching the bullet that makes both unsafe, what elements of both practices make them unsafe? If the danger is the a bullet may have a delayed detonation, isn't there an equal chance of the bullet having a delayed detonation while it is being ejected regularly and flying through the air, or while it is laying on the ground?

If flipping the bullet is considered USGH, but the dribbling the bullet is not, that what is it about flipping that makes it unsafe?

Good grief!

"Assuming we considered ..."

I reject your entire premise and this thread as a wanton waste and murder of innocent electrons, because we don't consider it USGH; not from a rules perspective. You know that very well from the other thread. You admit that in the very next post below.

Flip/Catch is USGH? DQable?

Nope, it's not with the current rules.

Some people consider it an unsafe practice, and I want to explore what about the action makes people feel that it is unsafe.

That's something else you've already been told in the other thread. What ask it again here?

Thinking about this some more, I know of a couple of very safety conscious shooters who tilt their guns left about 45 degrees as they rack the slide when I ask them to unload and show clear. They presumably do this so that they can also see that the chamber is clear and minimize movement. Should I warn them about this potentially "unsafe" practice?

Lord help us...

Don't get me wrong. I personally don't consider the practice unsafe, but that's just from being around a lot of shooters who do it all the time. Heck, the guy who familiarized me with safely dealing with handguns when I was 10 flipped the bullet out and caught it when he was clearing his gun. (He then promptly told me not to try doing the same catching trick.) I just wanted to see what the reasons behind some people who consider it unsafe, in case there is some thing that I'm missing.

The previous threads simply had people it's unsafe, but without much discussion as to why. Kevin's response about muzzle and finger inattentiveness was also quite insightful. I actually tended to subscribe to Kevin's response as to why the practice maybe considered unsafe, but it was Corey's reply which described the mechanics of the danger was an eye opener for me.

I'm sorry if this was a waste of bandwidth for others, but it was quite educational for me. Although, it has not changed my mind, this has given me more understanding of why others would want the practice stopped.

[Gary Johnson]

I really don't see why it's annoying, unprofessional, etc etc.

Ammunition is expensive, and I can't count on the RO to prevent the round from falling on the ground. Once a round hits the ground, unless I see exactly where it lands it's a lost cause. I'm certainly not going to pick up a mystery 9mm round and load it into one of my magazines and hope it's not someone's 9mm Major ammo that will blow up my Glock.

Instead I rack the slide and lock it open. A circumstance of that action is that the cartridge comes out of the gun and hits me in the mid chest area, where I catch it and prevent it from falling on the ground.

It has nothing to do with showing off - I'm just trying to save a round. I think there might be what psychologists call "projecting" going on here...

It's not projection, it's experience, as a Range Officer.

I guess I can't state categorically that this is always showboating. It may be that some folks believe this to be an efficient means of retaining the ejected round.

What I can say with absolute certainty is that it can be distracting. I personally have learned to ignore it but that is seldom the case for a new RO and a new RO is the last guy I want to have distracted.

In any case, if you have a method of ejecting a round that allows you to hang on to it without distracting the RO, I'm all for it. I use a different method but we arrive at the some result.

[ima45dv8]

Lord help us...

Don't get me wrong. I personally don't consider the practice unsafe, but that's just from being around a lot of shooters who do it all the time. Heck, the guy who familiarized me with safely dealing with handguns when I was 10 flipped the bullet out and caught it when he was clearing his gun. (He then promptly told me not to try doing the same catching trick.) I just wanted to see what the reasons behind some people who consider it unsafe, in case there is some thing that I'm missing.

The previous threads simply had people it's unsafe, but without much discussion as to why. Kevin's response about muzzle and finger inattentiveness was also quite insightful. I actually tended to subscribe to Kevin's response as to why the practice maybe considered unsafe, but it was Corey's reply which described the mechanics of the danger was an eye opener for me.

I'm sorry if this was a waste of bandwidth for others, but it was quite educational for me. Although, it has not changed my mind, this has given me more understanding of why others would want the practice stopped.

If you simply want to know why some people consider an action unsafe, you might want to give this a try......

"Why do you consider _________ unsafe?"

And if that's what you really want to know, why spin it further by and dilute the exchange by asking (based on the same incorrect and as-yet unconfirmed premise), "Well, if that's unsafe, how about __________ ?"

Ask a question you need answered, sit back and read and consider the responses.

You want to know? Just ask.

Simply.

[Jim Norman]

"the cost of ammo" as a reason to Flip and Catch? really, Even at the Nationals if you dropped EVERY round at the end of EVERY COF you would be out of pocket with FACTORY ammo what? $12.00??? This is reason enough to risk your fingers? or to risk sweeping yourself and DQing??

Personally I do feel that this is an Unsafe practice. It ranks up there with those that do the Hammer Down portion casually by hold the gun up near their shoulder to show the RO it is empty and pull the trigger with the gun right up by their face. Some day their gun will go BANG and the slide A could hit them and B since they are not actually aiming their gun the berm a round in this case COULD go over the berm.

[kevin c]

I teach an intro course to action pistol, and point out that to catch the flipped round means taking your attention off the gun and muzzle direction. I advise that if the gun points in an unsafe direction or if the shooter inadvertently crosses the muzzle with his hand while grabbing at the round, it's a DQ. There's also what other posters point out in terms of possible detonations at ULASC.

It's bad to face a DQ. It's embarrassing to be DQ'd for a safety infraction committed while doing something that some would consider showboating. It's even worse to get hurt, or get somebody else nearby (the RO) hurt.

No, it's not by itself against the rules, but anybody doing it should be prepared to face the consequences if doing it doesn't go to plan.

[sirveyr]

<sigh> I just don't get it?

I'm not sure how some people are flippin' and catchin', but I've never had or seen anything that would make me consider it unsafe.

Edited August 30, 2011 by sirveyr