What's an unrealistic non-shooting requirement...

[Schutzenmeister]

I don't want to go into this one too deep, but ...

If there were any, the folks who got hit the worst on this silly stage were the revolver shooters!

I'm firmly in the camp, that although technically legal, such practices (e.g., having to pick up ALL your ammo at some location before you start shooting) is dumb. Just because you CAN specify something dosen't translate into HAVING TO DO IT! If they had allowed you to prestage ammo along the CoF - That's a different thing.

The only portion of the whole procedure I seriously question is the WSB requirement that you could not stuff ammo in pockets. I really think that violates 1.1.5 - freestyle. Regardless of what some people think, a WSB CANNOT be used to circumvent the rules.

On the "way to get around this type of crazy stage requirement" solution ... More and more folks are including large magnets on their gun belts these days. Hmmmmm: I wonder why?

[walter hornby]

Is the penalty one procedural or one per shot? If one I would keep all the mags on my belt. If one per shot I would see how fast I could place them in my pouches like everyone else.

As an RO i would not start you as you are not in the proper start position as described by the stage briefing.

[Skydiver]

I don't want to go into this one too deep, but ...

If there were any, the folks who got hit the worst on this silly stage were the revolver shooters!

I'm firmly in the camp, that although technically legal, such practices (e.g., having to pick up ALL your ammo at some location before you start shooting) is dumb. Just because you CAN specify something dosen't translate into HAVING TO DO IT! If they had allowed you to prestage ammo along the CoF - That's a different thing.

The only portion of the whole procedure I seriously question is the WSB requirement that you could not stuff ammo in pockets. I really think that violates 1.1.5 - freestyle. Regardless of what some people think, a WSB CANNOT be used to circumvent the rules.

On the "way to get around this type of crazy stage requirement" solution ... More and more folks are including large magnets on their gun belts these days. Hmmmmm: I wonder why?

As much as it pains me, it seems like that WSB was not circumventing the rules. The stage designer is allowed to prohibit the use of apparel pockets:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

If I were a revolver shooter, and the WSB said no pockets, I would have tucked the bill of my ballcap into my belt at "Make Ready", and after the start signal scooped up all the speedloaders into the ballcap when I got to the barrel.

[ima45dv8]

I would have tucked the bill of my ballcap into my belt at "Make Ready", .....

Would the hat still be on your head?

I'd like to see that.

[Skydiver]

I would have tucked the bill of my ballcap into my belt at "Make Ready", .....

Would the hat still be on your head?

I'd like to see that.

LOL! That would be a neat trick! Should make shooting low ports even easier. :-)

Nah... just take the hat off and stick it into the belt.

[mactiger]

IMO, the picking up mags/loading the gun is probably OK, as loading your gun is a component of shooting. Kinda on the edge of "monkey motions" though. The 20 yard sprint is definitely not a shooting challenge. Travel 20, 30, 60 yards while shooting, fine. Run 20 yards under the clock without shooting--that's a track meet, not a shooting challenge.

Troy

[konkapot]

The "P" in USPSA indicates that there should be some practicality involved here; I would argue that shoving magazine(s) in your pouches is less practical than having to run 10+/- yards.

Getting the heart rate up while/prior to shooting seems pretty practical.

I understand that x% of our population is overweight obese; I'm not advocating a track meet/marathon/obstacle course.

Again, this might be viewed differently depending on what your shooting focus/goals are.

FY42385

[shred]

The "P" in USPSA indicates that there should be some practicality involved here; I would argue that shoving magazine(s) in your pouches is less practical than having to run 10+/- yards.

Getting the heart rate up while/prior to shooting seems pretty practical.

I understand that x% of our population is overweight obese; I'm not advocating a track meet/marathon/obstacle course.

Again, this might be viewed differently depending on what your shooting focus/goals are.

FY42385

10 yards +/- I think is ok. 20 is scoring people on running speed versus their ability to leave and set up on a target. At the end of the day we want to know the best shooters, not the best runners or belt-reloaders or prop-tossers or whatever. The fittest of the bunch, assuming equal skills, will still come out on top within 10 yards. Some stuff to mix it up is good, but it shouldn't effect anybody's score more than 10% one way or the other.

When you think of two-word post-match descriptions ("Hey Joe, how was the ABC match?")-- "Track meet" is not a good one.

It is indicative that we have such a shorthand description.

[Flexmoney]

When you think of two-word post-match descriptions ("Hey Joe, how was the ABC match?")-- "Track meet" is not a good one.

It is indicative that we have such a shorthand description.

Nicely put, Roy.

[Jim Norman]

The run to the gun is OK sort of, the run after the gun is a bit much. OK in 3-Gun where the physical challenge can be quite often more intense, but not for USPSA pistol. Give them something to do on the way to the gun and make the first point of engagement within steps of where the gun is recovered.

It in not a bad thing to get the heart rate up on shooters, I've been and I am sure others have been as well to matches where you had better be in shape if you wanted to finish. Vaulting walls, overhead rope traverses, crawls under wire, crawling under buses it all has a place.

[Jake Di Vita]

After thinking about it, I don't think an unrealistic non-shooting requirement exists.

[Singlestack]

After thinking about it, I don't think an unrealistic non-shooting requirement exists.

Really?

How about a one mile run to get the gun?

[Steven Cline]

After thinking about it, I don't think an unrealistic non-shooting requirement exists.

The "all things are possible, therefor all things are all realistic" argument?

[old506]

I agree with that. Impractical at a match, maybe, but unrealistic? No.

I'm good with a nice run to the gun, you have to set up, stop yourself, be under control and it gets your heart rate up. If you are shooting a 6 stage match what's wrong with one stage with a good run? It does play into someone's strength but so do 50pnt stages vs. 150pnt stages.

After thinking about it, I don't think an unrealistic non-shooting requirement exists.

Edited August 25, 2011 by old506

[Jake Di Vita]

How about a one mile run to get the gun?

Let's do it. I'm game, and I'm a really shitty runner lol.

I think all of it, regardless of what it is, is only a distraction from the shooting.

The problem isn't that physical challenges are unreasonable, the problem is that the average USPSA member doesn't think fitness and practical shooting should go together. I strongly disagree with that sentiment.

[digby7]

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage

props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic

non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting

challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

At a match I recently attended the start position was seated in a chair, hands on knees, handgun was placed unloaded on a barrel some (call it) 10 yards away with all magazines to be used during the COF also on the barrel. It was a 32 rnd cnt stage.

The shooter was required to run to the barrel, gather his mags, load the gun then run to chosen first shooting position everyone chose the same point another 10 yards away and shoot the CoF. The SS/P/L-10 guys needed to holster 4 mags, and load his gun if he wanted to avoide stationary reloads in the middle of the array.

I shot the stage in 27.63 seconds but spent 9 seconds just getting ready to shoot. 1/3 of the entire time was spent addressing a non-shooting requirement. The fastest of any of the SS/P/L-10 shooters was but .33 seconds faster at 27.30 seconds. That 9 seconds (1/3 of total time) was not a shooter induced delay such as over-running a target and having to return.

So... would this be a unrealistic non-shooting requirement?

Opine, discuss.

Hey Steve, this is Alex - the guy with the 9mm cqb. Yes, that stage definitely felt like it was designed by a limited/open shooter FOR limited/open shooters. I loaded and 5 fingered the remaining 4 mags with my left handed and shot the stage strong hand only. Good meeting you.

[Singlestack]

How about a one mile run to get the gun?

Let's do it. I'm game, and I'm a really shitty runner lol.

I think all of it, regardless of what it is, is only a distraction from the shooting.

The problem isn't that physical challenges are unreasonable, the problem is that the average USPSA member doesn't think fitness and practical shooting should go together. I strongly disagree with that sentiment.

4. Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical

firearms and equipment.

I don't see anything there about marathon running.

[Joe4d]

Give the shooter the choice, design stages with sweet spots in the vision barriers, so the shooter can decide to take a farther shot or run up and shoot close.

[Jim Norman]

The problem isn't that physical challenges are unreasonable, the problem is that the average USPSA member doesn't think fitness and practical shooting should go together. I strongly disagree with that sentiment.

This is probably the truest statement we'll see regarding 'non'-shooting challenges. I think that other problem stems from the non-practical gear and gear positioning we now have. Holsters should maintain a handgun securely if you do a somersault, Mags should be carried in a manner that allows you to bend without virtually impaling yourself. Low crawl with a holstered gun and mags, retained? or left behind? Now I am NOT advocating that we stop using Ghost holsters and front mounted mags, just saying that they also have a effect on the level of physical challenge we can safely insert into a match.

[shred]

Stage 1 "Duelling Mathematicians"

Start Position: Seated at table, pen in strong hand, weak hand holding down stack of paper.

On Signal, compute the 37th Fibonacci number, then draw and engage T1 with two rounds only.

RO notes: Shooter must write each calculation completely. Incorrect results or missed steps will incur one procedural penalty each. T1 is set on the other side of the card table.

[shred]

Stage 2 "Holy Diver"

Start position: Facing downrange atop 10m Olympic Dive Platform

On signal, draw and engage T1 with six rounds. Perform a reverse pike or any other dive with a difficulty rating of at least 3.2 into the pool.

Your score on the target will be added to the judges score of the dive.

[aztecdriver]

This got me thinking now... Would you consider the below an unrealistic non-shooting component.

Typical back and forth with shoot box up through the center... and barrel covered targets that uncover going further downrange... except the shoot box consist of railroad ties that zigzag down the COF.

WSB, engage targets as they become available from on top of the railroad ties. Stepping off of the railroad tie will incur one procedural per step.

ETA - this was an incredibly fun and deceptively hard stage to shoot.

Edited August 26, 2011 by aztecdriver

[BritinUSA]

Physical challenges are not unreasonable, this is practical shooting after all. But I think there needs to be some common sense.

With physical challenges there are issues in Practical shooting that do not apply to other sporting events. We are fortunate in that both men and women compete side-by-side in our competitions. Any physical challenge that benefits one over the other is a problem. So I think there is a need to reduce the scope of the physical challenge. In the example sited in the opening post they could have placed the gun just 3 yards away instead of 10, there is no real difference to the course of fire as its just movement to the gun.

Having all the magazines on the barrel is perfectly reasonable in my opinion, it tests dexterity under pressure, the shooter can take only the magazines that they need to complete the course or they can take more and give themselves a margin for error, this is all tactics and part of the sport.

I don't think that any physical challenge directly linked to shooting should be used. I have seen stages where balls were lobbed at activating plates. What does that have to do with shooting? But I have also heard of stages where the competitor had to knock open a door with a ram, those things are heavy and any lighter shooter is now at a significant disadvantage (plus the possibility of injury).

Our sport is about time and accuracy, we should test the physical abilities of the shooters (I agree with Jake on this), but we also need to test their shooting ability. Varied course design allows this, a mixture of short, medium and long stages will test all aspects of the shooter.

[Skydiver]

This got me thinking now... Would you consider the below an unrealistic non-shooting component.

Typical back and forth with shoot box up through the center... and barrel covered targets that uncover going further downrange... except the shoot box consist of railroad ties that zigzag down the COF.

WSB, engage targets as they become available from on top of the railroad ties. Stepping off of the railroad tie will incur one procedural per step.

ETA - this was an incredibly fun and deceptively hard stage to shoot.

Yeah that is a fun stage! It puts more pressure on planning steps and facings rather than just winging things and saying, I'll shoot it when I see it.

One of our local clubs has done something similar with low benches a couple of times. One of our regular shooters always just writes DNF on her scoresheet and offers to run paper because she has vertigo and doesn't want to fall off t he benches.

[BillD]

You can just lay 2X8's on the ground and specify to stay on the wood. Works the same and nobody has to fall down. Unless we are practicing for a shootout in a skyscraper under construction. I guess you have to be ready for all eventualities.

I dislike "silly" stages. Gratiutous movement, sometimes put in by 25 year old MD's to build the course to their strengths, silly start positions, like the one mentioned; these all have little to do with the practicality of shooting. IMO, it's a way to try to make a COF somewhat interesting without having to work too hard on the target placement and shooting positions, which, again, IMO, are the real important things about the stage.