USPSA Revolver Participation

[Flexmoney]

They need to do what they can to increase revolver numbers as a whole and not divide the ones they have.

That is a good point to ponder.

[Carmoney]

They need to do what they can to increase revolver numbers as a whole and not divide the ones they have. as far as the big matches the revo prise table is usually filled with junk revo shooters can't use. introducing 8 shots might be the wave and it might not but you won't know unless they try.

I agree. At this point what can it hurt to try? Despite huge effort from a few die-hards, the numbers have sucked lately. We should do the rule change provisionally for a year or two, just like we did for Single-Stack, and see how it works out.

The current version of the Revolver division equipment rules was drafted right here on this forum--at that time, there was a clear consensus on keeping it 6 shots between reloads, no porting or comps. Otherwise, the rules were liberalized, with the thought process being that allowing custom barrels and such would encourage more participation. The practical difference of the rule change has been minimal.

Time for a personal confession--this past year, competing in USPSA matches with my 625 has felt too much like work. I couldn't wait to get home from Nationals and throw the damn thing in the safe and get out my 1911s. I take a break from Revo every year anyway, which I think is healthy and makes me a whole lot better all-around shooter--but for the first time I am not sure I will pick up my 625 after the Single Stack Nats. Depending on work stuff, I am going to try to make it to the IRC again in 2012--I really love that match. But for USPSA, I might just shoot Production all next year, or maybe even (gasp!) Limited.

I have a feeling I'm not the only one tired of fighting the system to keep Revolver Division alive in its current form.

So screw it.....what can it possibly hurt to change it up a little? We have nothing meaningful to lose.

Or so it seems to me.

[lora]

USPSA is fine the way it is.

Don't fix what is not broken

USPSA Revolver Nationals. 2011: 21 competitors. 2010: 22 competitors.

Rio Salado Monthly ICORE matches. October 2011: 34 competitors. September 2011: 31 competitors. August 2011: 22 competitors. July 2011: 29 competitors.

Are you sure that the current USPSA revolver rules are the best they can be?

ICORE participation in most parts of the country: 0 competitors.

Don't get me wrong--I love shooting ICORE matches, but there are only a few hot spots in the country where the game has taken off.

I think thats more due to the lack of organization, not lack of shooter desire. Not all of us have the time to dedicate to start ICORE clubs or organize a match. God bless those that do!!! They are our heros of the sport. Where there is an organized competitive structure with both ICORE and USPSA, the number or revolver competitors by numerical comparison is just to far apart to not suggest there is a miss in USPSA revolver division. And the only real difference between the two, are the exculsionary and penalty rules in USPSA for all revolvers. If this were a business, how would it make sense to not try to expand your customer base vs. risking what appears to be a closing of the doors. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and what do we have to loose that can't be regained if it doesn't pan out.

--I guess we were on the same page about the same time.--

Edited October 25, 2011 by lora

[Tom E]

what can it possibly hurt to change it up a little? We have nothing meaningful to lose.

Or so it seems to me.

I agree. Give six shooters major scoring at 120 pf. That would make 6 shot .38's usable. Score 8 shooters minor at 120 pf and give it a try.

[jhgtyre]

I would think to get major scoring you would need to hit 165. Don't feel like doing it with your .38/.357? Well minor may be the place for you.

[JFlowers]

... That would make 6 shot .38's usable....

Why are 6 shot 38s not usable now? The rules allow a 38 to make major and I shot many matches with my Model 28 using .38 Major until I got my first 625.

[Tom E]

I would think to get major scoring you would need to hit 165. Don't feel like doing it with your .38/.357? Well minor may be the place for you.

Maybe because not all .38's (which is what I said) shoot .357's or will reasonabley handle 38's loaded to major. It also seemed like a way to create an even playing field where you could COMPETITIVELY shoot both 6 shot's and 8 shot's which is what I thought this thread was about.

[Tom E]

Why are 6 shot 38s not usable now? The rules allow a 38 to make major and I shot many matches with my Model 28 using .38 Major until I got my first 625.

I think you answered your own question. I see you replaced your 28 with a (much) more competitive 625.

[jhgtyre]

Competitively appropriate equipment is available in 6 shot configuration just as competitive equipment is available in all divisions. I don't see any sense in lowering the power factor to make non competitive equipment feasable.

[Bubber]

I don't see allowing the 6 shot to score major at 120 or even 125 as a viable option. However a drop to 150 to 155 pf will allow the 45 / 40 shooters to shoot with an easier major, and the 38 specials should be able to make that with some tinkering. And then the 7 & 8 shots scoring minor at 125 and above. I have shot minor with the 38 specials and supers for many years. I am competitive, I just don't win much. Let's not confuse competitiveness with winning. If we want the change let's focus on what we are trying now. And get the data and particiapation going. Later rdd

[Bones]

No revolver sport has any hope beyond occupying a niche until 6 shot 38 Special revolvers in the hands of the average and new shooter have a place to be competitive. There are simply not enough 625s/627s and people willing to tinker with them in existence to go beyond that. Believe what you like about IDPA, but the appeal to the average person to use more-or-less off-the-shelf equipment to draw meaningful numbers of new competitors was decisive in it's success in my opinion.

[Tom E]

I don't see allowing the 6 shot to score major at 120 or even 125 as a viable option. However a drop to 150 to 155 pf will allow the 45 / 40 shooters to shoot with an easier major, and the 38 specials should be able to make that with some tinkering. And then the 7 & 8 shots scoring minor at 125 and above. I have shot minor with the 38 specials and supers for many years. I am competitive, I just don't win much. Let's not confuse competitiveness with winning. If we want the change let's focus on what we are trying now. And get the data and particiapation going. Later rdd

I was just looking at what would work as a whole. I shot the King of Revo match and have looked at the scores. It's the bestest biggest comparison I've seen (6 vs 8) with ~40 shooters. It sure seemed to show that 8 shot minor beats a 6 shot major. The 6 shot scored major at a 120 PF might be closer. ICORE has something USPSA revolver doesn't, diversification in terms of what guns people are shooting and coming out and participating with. USPSA Revolver is pretty much a 625 class and the 5" "gun of choice" isn't even produced anymore. It doesn't exactly encourage using anything else. In terms of participation, ICORE's "Classic" division seems to have been a very smart addition. USPSA Revolver doesn't appear to be so successfull we shouldn't at least look at change.

[Blueridge]

I don't see allowing the 6 shot to score major at 120 or even 125 as a viable option. However a drop to 150 to 155 pf will allow the 45 / 40 shooters to shoot with an easier major, and the 38 specials should be able to make that with some tinkering. And then the 7 & 8 shots scoring minor at 125 and above. I have shot minor with the 38 specials and supers for many years. I am competitive, I just don't win much. Let's not confuse competitiveness with winning. If we want the change let's focus on what we are trying now. And get the data and particiapation going. Later rdd

I was just looking at what would work as a whole. I shot the King of Revo match and have looked at the scores. It's the bestest biggest comparison I've seen (6 vs 8) with ~40 shooters. It sure seemed to show that 8 shot minor beats a 6 shot major. The 6 shot scored major at a 120 PF might be closer. ICORE has something USPSA revolver doesn't, diversification in terms of what guns people are shooting and coming out and participating with. USPSA Revolver is pretty much a 625 class and the 5" "gun of choice" isn't even produced anymore. It doesn't exactly encourage using anything else. In terms of participation, ICORE's "Classic" division seems to have been a very smart addition. USPSA Revolver doesn't appear to be so successfull we shouldn't at least look at change.

Diversification comes from the choices of the participants, and not so much from the shooting sport. There are of course parameters that the various sports have, but they are wide enough to allow for a fair amount of diversity. I personally use a Ruger Alaskan chambered in .45 Colt/.454 Casull (loaded with .45 Colt ). I do own a S&W 625, but I prefer to use the Alaskan.

In my opinion ICORE really would not want to have the USPSA Revolver Division expand to encompass a broader group of revolvers and options. This would likely reduce the numbers of participants in ICORE, rather than simply increasing the participation in the USPSA Revolver Division. I would not be adverse to shooting both, but if I had to make a choice I would likely lean towards USPSA.

On November fifth I am going to be participating in the Memphis Charity Challenge using the Alaskan in Revolver Division. The next day the regular Memphis Sport Shooting Association club match will be held, and I intend to participate in that match in the Production Division. I expaect that I will do well in both even though firearms more "competition oriented" (ie. "guns of choice") will be used by other participants.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Blueridge

[Carmoney]

No revolver sport has any hope beyond occupying a niche until 6 shot 38 Special revolvers in the hands of the average and new shooter have a place to be competitive. There are simply not enough 625s/627s and people willing to tinker with them in existence to go beyond that. Believe what you like about IDPA, but the appeal to the average person to use more-or-less off-the-shelf equipment to draw meaningful numbers of new competitors was decisive in it's success in my opinion.

I think the harsh reality is that shooting a revolver in any of the action shooting disciplines is going to remain a niche. Nationally, wheelgunners are a niche in USPSA and IDPA. ICORE is a niche game in and of itself.

I think the main reason is that it's damn difficult to shoot those games with a revo. Seems to me like making it easier and more fun is the way to attract more shooters. Shooting USPSA with an 8-shot 627 and minor P.F. ammo would be easier and more fun--for most people anyway.

This is all an academic discussion anyway. With no clear consensus emerging on this, the equipment rules are going to stay the same.

[Carmoney]

One more point.....the one thing that might seriously increase interest in USPSA Revo would be a well-run stand-alone National Championship with great stages and a kick-ass prize table.

That might give the top GM shooters in USPSA, and many more of the rank and file guys, a reason to put down their autos and pick up the wheels.

[Matt Griffin]

Here's the thing: I see a lot of talk about "being competitive" in this thread and that doesn't really make sense to me if we're talking about the same division. One platform will be superior to the other, and will be adopted by all the top shooters, and they will still cream your ass in a competition. Subsequently all the current top shooters will have to pay thousands of dollars to stay competitive in order to increase participation by what, ten shooters? Why are we saving ten fairweather shooters from having to pay for a $150 moonclip job on their current guns and instead making the ten top shooters buy two 627s, optics, dies, brass, bullets, comps, holders, and holsters? If you introduce 8-shot guns into the same division it will have the exact same effect of eliminating Open and letting them shoot in Limited. The equipment race will be back on and guess what the cry was back when this was the situation? "Oh we can't be competitive without buying a racegun make more divisions!" We'll have the same damned discussion about revolver in five years where a bunch of people will complain that they don't want to buy $1,500 of gun just to "be competitive.

Really, what level of "competitive" are we talking about? Casual entries into the class aren't going to be competitive if you give them a laser sight and a ten shot Mateba just like I'm not competitive in Limited because I don't practice Limited. I think we're overvaluing increasing the list from thirty people to forty-five at Nationals, especially when we have a full 80 showing up for the MCC next weekend.

I'll make an offer right now to anyone who wants to shoot revolver: At any match where you see I'm shooting I will let you borrow a 625, moonclips, and a moonclip server that I've never practiced using. You bring the ammo, eyes and ears and see if you like it. I bet you that if you asked any number of people would do the same. If you decide you like it then yeah, you might have to buy a second revolver if you only have a 7 or 8 shot, they cost about $700. I have five. I really don't want to buy two more in order for someone to "try" the division because they only have a single revolver and don't really know if they want to shoot.

IMHO if folks really, really want to shoot their .38s then let's have a category recognition like ICORE and nothing more. Give 'em prizes, I don't care, it's not like I really make my money back on a $450 gun when I spend $2000 to go to Vegas or $4,000 to go to Greece. Allowing 8-shot guns is trying to please a tiny group of maybe-shooters by wrecking everyone else who has dedicated a lot of time to the division as it stands today.

Matt

[ChrisC]

Matt, I respect your opinion and believe that you have a valid point, but along those same lines we should ditch limited 10, single stack, production, and for that matter revolver and just go back to open and limited. I mean just to please a few shooters they have spawned entire divisions. And I'll admit, it's a selfish reason that I would push for 8 shots to be allowed, because I'd rather shoot one than a 6 shot. but that won't apply to everyone. at this point it doesn't matter because we are in fact a minority without much of a voice...

[lora]

jhgtyre,

Is it possible for anybody to obtain the total annual number of revolver participants in USPSA nationaly and regionally while at it. Perhaps this data will help in clarification of just how many current shooters we are talking about.

With the knowledge base I have seen here, which is impressive, perhaps we can better work out a good suggestion for the board to consider than just "Should 7 or 8 shot rev. be included as minor," even if it is to keep it the same.

Would there be harm in a provisional 6 month trail supported by USPSA, on accepting the 7 or 8 shot guns as minor scoring or a 7th shot time penalty. Those with 6 shooters will not loose any competition ranking, clasification, or status since all that participate with the 7/8's would be unofficial and used for data gathering only, to evauate participation, scoring, competitivenes, and individual experience.

I agree based on uninformed assumptions and lack of consensus, this may only be academic. However, if we are seeing a surge in interest, why let it pass without full due diligence and put this issue to bed,instead of wrangling with it in another 3 years,or worse, risking a slow death of the division.

[Matt Griffin]

Matt, I respect your opinion and believe that you have a valid point, but along those same lines we should ditch limited 10, single stack, production, and for that matter revolver and just go back to open and limited. I mean just to please a few shooters they have spawned entire divisions. And I'll admit, it's a selfish reason that I would push for 8 shots to be allowed, because I'd rather shoot one than a 6 shot. but that won't apply to everyone. at this point it doesn't matter because we are in fact a minority without much of a voice...

. . . and that's the difference. If we had 200 people in the division then you could easily spin off other divisions without harm, just as the auto community has done. Since we're so small to begin with you really can't rock the boat, and allowing 8-shot guns would be a massive, massive upheaval in a game that has 8-shot arrays. Alternately you could just limit arrays to 6 shots like ICORE and I would be fine with allowing 8-shot guns, then you're into nasty math about reload speed vs. that extra shot.

Speaking as an authority on coming in 2nd by a narrow margin, one extra reload without any possibility of working around it in a match is huge. If Jerry had eaten 2 seconds at the entire USPSA National Championship in either of the last two years I would be the repeat national champion, instead I'm the Phil Mickelson of shooting. It's a game-breaker.

Matt

[Carmoney]

At the risk of repeating myself, good USPSA/IPSC matches are not set up as a series of 8-shot arrays. If you are running into matches where the stages always seem to be 8-8-8-8, it's time to start working on the stage design problem at those matches.

With better stage design in place (as it hopefully is at most major matches), the difference between 6 major and 8 minor becomes much less clear. You're going to save a reload here and there with an 8-shooter, but there is an off-setting cost in points if you only allow minor scoring for the 8-shot option. Time is obviously important, but at the upper levels, points are really important too.

The difference between major and minor scoring over the course of a large match is much more significant than some people seem to realize.

[Matt Griffin]

You're abosolutely right Mike, my example was under the assumption that major would be allowed. Minor would be weird math but I don't know which side it would fall upon. I'll compromise: 8-shooters have to be minor and have to be speedloader, and you have a deal.

Matt

[RevolverJockey]

I have shot USPSA off and on for about 5 years at local Area 1 clubs. Until about a 2 years ago I had never seen a revolver at a match. A friend and I decided it would be a cool thing to get and maybe play around with. That being said, I shoot exclusively revolvers now and have purchased 5 more since the first. I encouraged a fellow club member (and sold him a second 610 I had) and he now shoots revolver vice a Glock 35/Limited. A month ago another friend joined the BE forum and bought a 4" 625 off a member to shoot instead of a homemade single stack and will be shooting it next weekend in his SECOND USPSA match ever. My home club averages 25 shooters per match from our 5 club central Washington group. This means that out of 25 people, 2-4 are revolver and that is if Loke and James A don't come out. It went from 0% to 8-16% in 2 years in home club members alone I don't think it is as much about the rules as getting people to try it. Gandi said, "Be the change you want to see in the world". One could take away from that "Encourage the change you want to see in the division". If everyone encouraged one shooter into Revolver division it would double in size. Recruit a Production shooter (They have plenty already) or mentor a new to the sport shooter. In 3 years you will have more competition even at a local level than you want.

On the point of extra rounds fired - our club and I am sure others simply doesn't have room for 32 round field course without something like 8-8-4-6-6 style arrays. Allowing 8 rounds would upset the balance of local club matches. Even shooting with minor scoring, if you could clear 2 array without the reload that 6 shot guns HAD to make you would come out ahead. It seems like such a simple thing to say, but 25% more shooters a local matches means the same increase at L2, Area and Nationals. People are going to shoot, why not find a way to have them shoot in our division? I don't see any Production forums talking about how they should divide the division to where guns with higher capacity could load to 17 rounds while guns with only 12 or less rounds or state that don't allow full capacity magazines get a special subdivision. For some people it has always been equipment and that little mechanical edge. Revolver is not one of those divisions, I shot an Apex gun and lost a bone stock 625 in the hands of a better shooter. I am sure if they made one James Austin would still be me with a 3 shot minor revolver if I was shooting an 8 shot major one. I take it in stride and practice. I don't think an 8 shot would be the answer for me, or would cause me to shoot more.

I officially change my vote to keep it at 6, a 627 can make Major and if you fire a 7th shot you take a procedural, 10 seconds, or whatever the appropriate penalty is from those who know enough to construct this minor change. Everyone can shoot what they have, these days anything can be cut for clips and most K or L frame Smiths can handle 357 - clips are out there. Honestly if you have a M19 and insist on shooting it you are probably just there for fun anyway - I plan on taking out my Pre Model 10 next year even if I have to load from a pocket.

Lee

Edited October 26, 2011 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[jhgtyre]

jhgtyre,

Is it possible for anybody to obtain the total annual number of revolver participants in USPSA nationaly and regionally while at it. Perhaps this data will help in clarification of just how many current shooters we are talking about.

Sorry but I wouldn't have any idea how to get that info. The best we could likely do is check participation at area and national matches.

I have been shooting my model 19 at IDPA matches and that has been fun. IDPA seems to be a good bit more revo friendly than USPSA. I do seem to run afoul of the "mother may I" attitude at those matches but I am learning.

Carmoney's point about 8 shot arrays at USPSA matches is valid but sadly I do see quite a few matches where the 8 shot array is the standard. Even at matches where alternative shot placement is available the standing reload is still par for the course. In my experience with revolver shooting, which has been on and off since the good ole days when Bubber still shot at Rio, you have to try harder to plan a stage than any other division. That makes it a great challenge but it also makes it taxing. Shooting an 8 shot I almost never have the same problem. I have done that on the local level with my ICORE open 627 and have had a good time. I don't win but I shoot in a GM rich environment so that isn't really an option anyway.

-ld

[bdpaz]

Where there is an organized competitive structure with both ICORE and USPSA, the number or revolver competitors by numerical comparison is just to far apart to not suggest there is a miss in USPSA revolver division. And the only real difference between the two, are the exculsionary and penalty rules in USPSA for all revolvers. If this were a business, how would it make sense to not try to expand your customer base vs. risking what appears to be a closing of the doors. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and what do we have to loose that can't be regained if it doesn't pan out.

This sums up my feelings precisely. I wish I had said it!

I think the main reason is that it's damn difficult to shoot those games with a revo. Seems to me like making it easier and more fun is the way to attract more shooters. Shooting USPSA with an 8-shot 627 and minor P.F. ammo would be easier and more fun--for most people anyway.

Strike out easier and you have my feelings - more fun with an 8 shot. I don't have any problems with standing reloads but shooting 6, reloading to shoot 2, then reloading again while moving to another position is too choppy and just isn't fun. I shot a monster match a few years ago with 40 to 50 round stages using my 625 and had a great time, and there were more than a few standing reloads. But a normal USPA match doesn't flow for me with a 6 shot revolver.

Subsequently all the current top shooters will have to pay thousands of dollars to stay competitive in order to increase participation by what, ten shooters? Why are we saving ten fairweather shooters from having to pay for a $150 moonclip job on their current guns and instead making the ten top shooters buy two 627s, optics, dies, brass, bullets, comps, holders, and holsters?

I don't know how to keep this from sounding spiteful, but if instead of ten new shooters there is a chance for 20 or 30 or more, it doesn't matter how it affects the top ten shooters. This isn't a spectator sport - matches depend on participants for income. Imagine if the other divisions appealed to only the top 10 or 20 shooters. What kind of Nationals would we have with 30 to 40 shooters at Limited/Production and 50 to 60 at Open/L10/Revo. It is the mid pack shooters who make these matches happen. Of course, having said that, I realize the other divisions have the big numbers so the big matches will happen and Revolver can continue to tag along so that argument really doesn't matter.

After having written all this, I have to admit that I don't really care if things change or not. I would like to shoot an 8 shot revolver in USPSA but I have monthly ICORE and weekly steel matches where I shoot it now, and I have plenty of other pistols for USPSA. So now it's time for something that really matters - off to walk the dogs.

[moverfive]

One more point.....the one thing that might seriously increase interest in USPSA Revo would be a well-run stand-alone National Championship with great stages and a kick-ass prize table.

That might give the top GM shooters in USPSA, and many more of the rank and file guys, a reason to put down their autos and pick up the wheels.

That is a good suggestion. I am going to pass this idea to Sam and see if he can do something about it.